Majora's Mask is the latest to benefit, but N64 Recompiled works with nearly all N64 games.
  • zcd@lemmy.caEnglish
    3674·
    5 months ago

    Nintendo right now: Get Boeing on the line

  • Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    271·
    5 months ago

    Nintendo could have raked in millions by doing it themselves, but they prefer their closed ecosystem.

    • Max-P@lemmy.max-p.meEnglish
      140·
      5 months ago

      The quality of what the community is doing vs what they shipped with NSO especially on launch is laughable.

      Native OoT and MM on the switch would have been really sick. Instead they went with 90s level of emulator quality.

      • SeaJ@lemm.eeOPEnglish
        37·
        5 months ago

        I was actually going to pay for NSO solely to be able to play OoT on the Switch. Then I saw that it was a pile of emulated muddied crap.

    • DacoTaco@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1598·
      5 months ago

      Has nothing to do with their closed eco system. They basically did similar stuff with some of the stuff in the sm3d collection thingy.
      Nintendo is a company that only wants make new stuff, innovations.
      For example, they ( mostly miyomoto ) has been quoted to not understand that people want another f-zero, as the game’s principals and ideas have been fully flushed out and no new ideas could make it feel like something new.
      They also usually dont do remakes/remasters unless its so new/different it can be considered a new game ( see metroid 2 on 3ds ).

      If that is a smart business position to have, i will leave for you to decide, but do get your facts a bit straight :)

      EDIT: also, nintendo has used open source projects for internal projects before, so idk how “closed ecosystem” is part of their stuff :)

      • xkforce@lemmy.worldEnglish
        416·
        5 months ago

        Nintendo is a company that only wants make new stuff

        They’ve been digging mario out of the dumpster for the last 40 years wtf are you dementia-ing on about?

        • catloaf@lemm.eeEnglish
          61·
          5 months ago

          I think they mean either all-new or straight dumpster-dive, no enhancing old games.

        • Syrc@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          5 months ago

          “Mario” barely qualifies as a single franchise at this point. It spans a ridiculous amount of genres.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
            1·
            5 months ago

            And, ironically, Odyssey at least re-uses almost all of it from time to time. Sure, the movement is slightly different, but it’s the same game they’ve been making since SM64. The 3D Super Mario games at least are all almost identical, with different worlds and slightly different movement.

      • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        27·
        5 months ago

        They basically did similar stuff with some of the stuff in the sm3d collection thingy.

        They did not.

        For Super Mario 64, they emulated it. They increased the resolution the game renders at (trivial with emulation of 3D systems) and they used basic LUA patches in the emulator to override HUD textures with higher resolution ones adjusted for the Switch controller.

        They did not add any further enhancements in any way. Compared to even 64 DS, it was extremely sophomoric. Compared to the Super Mario 64 decomp project, and what its native switch port is capable of (more on that later), it’s an incredibly lazy port. They didn’t even fix the slowdown with Bowser’s Sub that is as simple as adjusting a single compiler flag when you build the ROM from the N64 game source code.

        For Sunshine, it’s an admittedly impressive solution of mostly emulation with some sections of the game engine ported (I think it’s the audio processing?). Once again, the game is rendered at a higher resolution, but they did not redo ot improve further any textures (besides some of the HUD again), graphical effects, or game content. Wind Waker HD this ain’t.

        For Galaxy they cannibalized the existing port of it to Android on the NVidia Shield. The Switch shares most of the important internals with it (CPU, GPU). It’s a combo of emulation with certain key code ported, like Sunshine. Again, besides resolution and HUD, no improvements.

        Beyond that, Nintendo has been content to sell straight up emulation through the Virtual Console service since the Wii. They’ve had multiple instances of straight ports over the years, and some of the most popular Switch games are straight ports with DLC bundled in.

        There are numerous impressive remakes they have done over the years, but that is absolutely not the norm.

        The Super Mario 64 decomp on the Switch supports (not available in Nintendo’s official port in 3D All Stars):

        • Effectively infinite render distance for objects (coins, enemies, stars, etc)
        • 60 fps (compared to the original/all stars 30fps at best)
        • True analog camera control using the right stick (All Stars is just the original’s clunky button based control mapped to the stick)
        • All sorts of QoL options like collecting stars not kicking you out of a level, options for streamlined/faster message boxes
        • Optional bugfixes
        • Optional cheats
        • Variety of HD texture packs to choose from
        • Variety of higher quality 3D model packs to choose from
        • Support for an astounding variety of mods. Levels, entire new games, new characters, new movement and control options (Odyssey Mario in 64 with full cappy and enemy capture mechanics anyone?)
        • Support for many more languages
        • Nearly all of the above is toggleable mid-game from the pause menu.

        I don’t think anyone was expecting something amazing out of 3D All Stars, but they absolutely fucking phoned it in.

        • DacoTaco@lemmy.worldEnglish
          13·
          5 months ago

          Ye, the sm64 was just a jit emulation, you are correct there. Not gonna deny that either. The sms and smg emulations are interesting and impressive though. They basically use a combination of jit compilation and aot compilation to basically take in the rom and adjust code as they go, but its technically running +/- natively, if i read the switchbrew wiki page correctly, thanks to the aot compilation. I find that impressive, from a technical standpoint.
          Could they have added more and do more changes? Yes, ofcourse. Im not saying the fan made stuff isnt impressive, it is and i love it!
          But for nintendo, who strives to create new experiences and things, not rehashing older stuff, is why they kept it basic. For them adding that stuff doesnt make sense as the game doesnt add new enough experiences. They dont care if a bug is fixed or graphics are improved. Those dont get you new experiences or gameplay mechanics. Thats what nintendo strives for.

          Again, if that is a good stance to have as a company i leave up to others to make opinions on, thats not up to me to decide or voice my opinion on ^^

          Fyi, since you seem to know what youre talking about, nintendo’s r&d have used open source projects before internally and we assume it is done to look at older games and see how they worked or if they could be used to make projects like sm3d ( without doing what the license doesnt permit )

      • tabular@lemmy.worldEnglish
        24·
        5 months ago

        Innovate means needing to pay for an online service to transfer saves between consoles, saves stored on an SD card?

        Do they DMCA fan made games because the game concepts have been fully fleshed out?

        When copyright expires for FZero in a century perhaps we can find out if there’s more to be done (well, not us personally).

      • Furbag@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        5 months ago

        For example, they ( mostly miyomoto ) has been quoted to not understand that people want another f-zero, as the game’s principals and ideas have been fully flushed out and no new ideas could make it feel like something new.

        This is also why we’ll never get another Star Fox.

        sad furry noises 😿

      • helenslunch@feddit.nlEnglish
        1·
        3 months ago

        Nintendo is a company that only wants make new stuff, innovations.

        They don’t need to make anything. It was made decades ago. All they have to do is sell it, bare minimum on their own fucking store.

      • TachyonTele@lemm.eeEnglish
        32·
        5 months ago

        Damn you got mob downvoted for explaining exactly how Nintendo thinks. You’re absolutely right. People don’t seem to want to accept that Nintendo operates as an idea toy company. Once they’ve explored a new idea/gimmick they consider it completed and move on.

        • DacoTaco@lemmy.worldEnglish
          32·
          5 months ago

          Haha, i kinda expected it tbh. The internet hates nintendo and doesnt know how they operate internally. Still wanted to make the comment, as it is needed.

        • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
          1·
          5 months ago

          Except they don’t? What about Odyssey was new? It’s just a new version of SM64. Sure, it’s got a few different mechanics than SM64, Sunshine, and Galaxy, but those are all the same game at the core, right? This isn’t the only series they do like this.

          • TachyonTele@lemm.eeEnglish
            1·
            5 months ago

            The game mechanics and gimmicks are different in everyone of the games you just listed.

            • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
              11·
              5 months ago

              Barely. Odyssey even specifically references most of the older games to point out how it’s very similar. They all add a small movement mechanic, but other than that jumping has been the same since SM64.

              If we say the Mario games are totally different and don’t reuse ideas, no game does. Literally every game changes at least something small. Hell, patches in some games change more than what has changed between those games.

              • TachyonTele@lemm.eeEnglish
                12·
                5 months ago

                Ok. Let me know after you’ve actually played any of those games.

                Have a good one.

                • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
                  1·
                  5 months ago

                  See my edit above.

                  Also, check out this video. It has a lot of side-by-side comparisons of SM64 and Odyssey.

                  The developers wouldn’t argue it isn’t treading the same ground. In some cases, they literally have you tread the same ground. They send you back to Peach’s castle, just like we’re back in SM64. They know they’re running off of nostalgia.

                  Every game repeats stuff from older games. The 3D Super Mario games do this more than most. Call of Duty has changed more than these games have.

                  I can’t think of another series that repeats the same things, tell you explicitly as part of the game that it’s repeating the same things, and then has fans argue it isn’t repeating things again. Of course it is. We all know if is, and that’s part of why it sells. There’s so much nostalgia bait because they know the nostalgia is what sells a lot of their games.

                  I haven’t owned a Nintendo console since the SNES, but I’ve played a bit of SM64, a good chunk of Sunshine, and most of Odyssey (all when they were new, not since). I can tell how much they all share and I’m not even a fan of the games. An honest fan would agree.

    • ipkpjersi@lemmy.mlEnglish
      8·
      5 months ago

      You’re not wrong and I’m shocked this hasn’t been shut down yet. Not to mention, the Nintendo 64 has been discontinued for years, but I have a feeling that won’t stop Nintendo.

      • insomniac_lemon@kbin.social
        2·
        5 months ago

        When that older DX game port was released, I think it took like 3 or 4 days for them to take it down. Probably even like a patch stomp tuesday situation when the interns hand off the script detections off to the lawyers.

        It might take a bit longer if people stopped using sites like Youtube and Github, and tried not to include trademarked terms (or super-identifiable audiovisual content) anywhere.

  • empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    751·
    5 months ago

    Here before Nintendo files a cease&desist for daring to make a way better service than their shitty phoned-in subscription emulation service

  • ramirezmike@programming.devEnglish
    571·
    5 months ago

    a comment on that site really condescendingly claims this is how he would have handled it and that a script could be written in half a day to do the work.

    my understanding is that an emulator effectively recreates the hardware’s different components in software so that from the game’s “perspective” it’s running on a real machine more or less.

    This process instead decompiles the game code and recompiles for a new target machine.

    I suspect one can’t just pump out a script in an afternoon to do this, but I am curious what is the complexity here?

    • MajorasMaskForever@lemmy.worldEnglish
      57·
      5 months ago

      For graphics, the problem to be solved is that the N64 compiled code is expecting that if it puts value X at memory address Y it will draw a particular pixel in a particular way.

      Emulators solve this problem by having a virtual CPU execute the game code (kinda difficult), and then emulator code reads the virtual memory space the game code is interacting with (easy), interprets those values (stupid crazy hard), and replicates the graphical effects using custom code/modern graphics API (kinda difficult).

      This program is decompiling the N64 code (easy), searches for known function calls that interact with the N64 GPU (easy), swaps them with known valid modern graphics API calls (easy), then compiles for local machine (easy). Knowing what function signatures to look for and what to replace them with in the general case is basically downright impossible, but because a lot of N64 games used common code, if you go through the laborious process for one game, you get a bunch extra for free or way less effort.

      As one of my favorite engineering phrases goes: the devil is in the details

    • Khanzarate@lemmy.worldEnglish
      12·
      5 months ago

      So, you’re pretty much spot on with how emulators work. I also like using claymation to demonstrate it, like this. Your computer bends over backwards to give the game the exact environment it expects.

      What makes recompilation more than a simple script is the rebuilding aspect. I brought up claymation because it’s a great analogy for this, too. An n64 ROM is a complete set of characters, sets, and a script for a claymation movie. It’s I in one studio right now, and that studio is the N64, but you need this to be in your PC studio.

      First, you have to decompile your sets and characters. You take reference photos and rip out every tree in a forest set and roll each tree back into it’s own ball of clay, with its own reference photo each time. Every little clay cobble on a road, characters outfits, hair, limbs, you meticulously separate every piece of clay that Nintendo shaped, ball them up, and pack them. You now have a million little clay balls and reference photos for every one of them. You take these back to your PC studio. Thankfully, with these reference photos, your clay 3D printer (compiler) can return these balls into something very close to their original shapes, except there’s a bunch of little mistakes. One character’s leg is slightly thinner and longer than it should be, which messes up their gait when you re-film this, so you manually tweak the leg to be accurate. The cobbles don’t quite fit the same, they’re a bit smaller, but you have extra clay because of that so you just make more cobblestones. The road doesn’t look exactly like the original, but that’s fine. The trees, again, don’t quite fit right, but you’ve made similar trees in your studio before and you know those will work so you actually just use those as references instead of the originals. You get filming but this one scene just isn’t lit right, and you can’t figure out why, but you eventually figure out the N64 studio opened the blinds on their window to get natural sun in this shot, but your studio doesn’t have a good view of the sun at that angle, so you have to get a good lamp.

      You face a million little hurdles decompiling and recompiling. Its almost literally reinventing the wheel. Almost all the work goes into little details that almost seem unnecessary, but there’s so many that it’s absolutely necessary. I was watching a playthrough of a recompiled majoras mask earlier today, and the Dev of this project found his way there, too, and he said it took a few days to get majoras mask to decompile and recompile, and about a year to fix all those little details that in software become lag or new bugs. So the script guy isn’t really wrong when he said he could do it fast, but he definitely wouldn’t do it right.

    • PineRune@lemmy.worldEnglish
      311·
      5 months ago

      IIRC, the original cartridge had an extra chip in it that emulation hasn’t been able to use. I’m not sure if any progress has been made on this and a few other games that used these.

      • Evilcoleslaw@lemmy.worldEnglish
        11·
        5 months ago

        Nah it didn’t have an extra chip – but large portions of the game were written in microcode for the N64’s processor specifically. It’s part of what makes it and Rogue Squadron kind of a pain to emulate – along with using their own audio drivers (MoSYS/MusyX that were later used as the basis for the GameCube sound systems).

        IIRC there was an official Windows port at some point though. Not sure how well it worked or works on modern systems.

        • MightBeAlpharius@lemmy.worldEnglish
          8·
          5 months ago

          Wait… Y’all are talking about X-Wing: Rogue Squadron and Star Wars Episode 1: Battle for Naboo, right?

          I owned those windows ports!

          They worked great back in the day - I had such a blast with them that I begged my parents to get me a shitty Logitech joystick! If you want to check them out, it looks like Rogue Squadron is only $10 on Steam; and Battle for Naboo seems to be abandonware, but it seems to be hosted on a lot of “better spread than dead” game sites.

        • PineRune@lemmy.worldEnglish
          4·
          5 months ago

          I’m pretty sure that has been able to be emulated and run through most emulation software now. These Star Wars games had specific code and drivers that, when I looked up why it wouldn’t emulate years ago, had not been cracked open to get the source code to enable people to program it into emulation software.

    • VindictiveJudge@lemmy.worldEnglish
      11·
      5 months ago

      Battle for Naboo actually had an official PC version all the way back in 2001. No idea if it works on modern PCs, though.

      • PineRune@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3·
        5 months ago

        The keyboard controls are very janky. You’d have to do custom button mapping with a controller, and there’s no analog input. At least not without some mods that I’m not sure exist.

  • etuomaala@sopuli.xyzEnglish
    453·
    5 months ago

    Nintendo makes it as hard as possible to use their computers generically.

    Nintendo fanboys: “Thankyou, sir, may I have another?”

  • yamanii@lemmy.worldEnglish
    42·
    5 months ago

    Saw the twitter post yesterday, good thing they waited until it was basically ready to go before showing off, now even a C&D can’t stop it.

    • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
      17·
      5 months ago

      I don’t think there’s grounds for a C&D here anyway. I don’t think it uses any copywritten material. It transcodes the game into C I think, and that’s all. It does not rely on anything Nintendo created.