This would be enough to “radicalize me”, but I don’t think it’s all that radical to be against a system that treats people this way.
That’s the point, we’re not living a neutral situation, we’re under attack by bad people doing disgusting jobs
It’s us against the Epstein class, really.
It isn’t. It’s inhumane the way these companies are behaving. They’re a threat to society and this is humans’ instinctual response to eliminating threats.
We are giving thousands of dollars of our money to a company to insure that our life and health will be taken care of, it should NOT be up to these companies what methods of remedies that a person needs to be kept alive and healthy are “deemed necessary”
Furthermore; these companies CEO should NEVER be paid more than a
averagemedian citizen… full stop. There’s no reason an insurance company employee owns a yacht.average citizen
Median citizen. The average is raised significantly by a few rich folks.
Great point and an even better ultimatum.
well…
it did actually fix some things about the last company, last time…
The insurance company in question “partners with” United Healthcare, so… maybe not so much.
no, they just didn’t get the memo.
I’ll never understand how people were OK with putting middlemen with an interest in denying care between them and lifesaving treatment.
because apparently, the alternative is communism, and it will have death panels that will decide if you get to live in order to save costs…
Insurance companies are deathpanels though…
I believe that was their point…
Well maybe they are private enterprise death panels, but they trust them more than theoretical government death panels because the private sector is more efficient than government at cutting costs, such as, um, actually paying for needed care and oh shit they did not think that through.
edit: I meant to reply that to the comment above, but oh well. It’s here now.
that was my point.
they prefer real material death panels, than the alternative, because it might have theoretical death panels. that no country with public healthcare has.
The danger of commenting first thing after waking up!
same, haven’t got my coffee yet, how do you take yours?
Sugar and two creams usually. Sometimes black. Black and sugar today
here you go.
☕
Insurance is worse than communism in this case.
Tax paid universal healthcare and healthcare insurance both work on the idea of socializing the cost.
The difference is that insurance companies also need to make a profit too feed the owners. Since they don’t actually produce anything that can make a profit, the only place they can grab the “profit” is by denying cover.
American healthcare insurance is exactly the same picture that is shown when people try to explain why communism doesn’t work.
Nearly everything is better than the US&A’s take on capitalism.
Tax paid universal healthcare and healthcare insurance both work on the idea of socializing the cost.
I think if we used their language it might help: we should outsource healthcare costs.
The Acquired podcast went over this history very briefly in their Epic episode and it’s so crazy how close we were to having universal healthcare.
Tl;dl:
- during WW2, wage controls were in place due to a large demand of workers but very few people available due to being in the war
- unions and companies alike were looking for ways to make their positions and companies more attractive.
- government permitted benefits to augment salaries. Some companies started offering health insurance.
- back then going to the doctor was NOT the bankrupt causing thing that is today and was considered a fringe benefit
- larger companies were able to offer better incentives due to healthcare benefits
- add a few years of corruption and “market forces” and you have the system we have now
So blame wage controls during WW2.
Oh and the Brits were facing similar forces when they were starting to stand up their healthcare system but decided instead to hire people to build a robust system so everyone didn’t have to pay anything at the point of sale.
Yeah, it really was that simple.
I prefer to blame the people who take advantage of the sick
Universal healthcare is one of those things that’s not only tricky to set up but also to keep going. Here in the UK, yep the NHS is amazing. But it’s also terribly underfunded - despite taking over 10% of GDP (IIRC) we still have long waiting lists, and healthcare staff are overworked and underpaid. Greedy vermin are constantly looking for opportunities to privatise it, the only reason this hasn’t already happened is that it would be hugely unpopular. I’m pretty sure almost everyone in the country would prefer more taxes be spent on the NHS and maybe a bit less on, say, fossil fuel subsidies - but here we are. Still, it’s one of the few things our country can actually be proud of.
the only reason long waiting lists don’t exist in the us is because some people just are not getting the things they need done at all. Even people with insurance you often can’t find a specialist who takes it and the insurance denies things like in the article. The wait is very long when its impossible to get the treatment at all.
I wouldn’t say it’s tricky to keep going. Keeping it going is simply a case of funding it.
Now, repairing the damage of years of underfunding? That’s tricky
add a few years of corruption and “market forces” and you have the system we have now
Sir you are being shareholder-phobic
/s
Well, capitalists own the government that made this possible and they know a gap in the market when they see one…
Removed by mod
thanks Reagan
Someone call Luigi.
I’m so fascinated by the image of him having 8 downvotes while the comment calling for him by name only has 1 🤔
Maybe people think he is depicting Jesus here? I mean the heart he is pointing at with his left hand is often seen in iconic portraits of Jesus (I am not sure if it also appears in portraits of saints, but that’s not entirely relevant if the point would be whether people THOUGHT that or not)?
Oh who are we kidding, people probably just assume that the animation was generated by AI and so hate it for that reason:-P.
You are Luigi, We are all supposed to be Luigi
This is why we need the Mario Party
This is flat out no different than shooting someone in my book.
This is why people are behind Luigi.
Hey, I’m a people! I’m behind Luigi! I’m proof of this!
Mangione did nothing wrong.
What’s wrong with getting McDonald’s after playing video games?
Succulent american meal?
It’s like the trolley problem, except on one track is somebody’s beloved father and on the other is some executive’s 5th yacht.
I remember when I was 5 years old, my dad tried asking me the trolley problem.
So I took my train, and yelled at the G.I. Joes on my tracks “GET OFF THE TRAIN TRACKS, IDIOTS!!!” and ran them over. Then I backed the train up, switched tracks, and ran over spiderman. Then I yelled “FREE BONUS POINTS!!!”. Then I punched my dad in the balls, and ran upstairs giggling.
About a year ago my dad reminded me of that story. I’m in my 40s now. So I told him “I stand by that decision.”
This situation was more complicated then that. The treatment in question was histiotripy. While it might be less invasive than traditional surgery, it isn’t necessarily “better” when dealing with stage 4 cancer that failed to respond to surgery or chemotherapy. It just uses sound waves instead of scalpels.
Realistically, this guy would have died soon regardless of the treatment. It’s unlikely the technician would have been able to identify all the cancer after it’s spread throughout his body. It’s success depends on being able to target the majority of cancer cells, which isn’t easy for Stage 4 cancer.
That’s not even the point. Trying everything possible should be the norm, and it shouldn’t be dictated by some uncaring jackass with a 35th floor office. The entire little point of health insurance is to distribute the cost of those in need amongst all of the input of the whole. If you take enough of that input as profit for the stockholders and executives, there’s less available to do what the insurance is meant to do. They’re legally embezzling the investment of the whole without providing sufficient practical benefit to warrant it.
But even if you made the insurance system completely non-profit, there’s no upper bound on how much you can spend on each individual. You’d still run into cases where you have to distribute a limited number of resources.
Most of the world can pull it off. Why not the US?
Fuckin’ A.
I’m not advocating for the US style of health insurance. I’m saying this specific case, if the medical commentators in this thread are to be trusted, may have ended up the same way in a non-profit model.
I think the point is that while your point is broadly true, in this specific scenario the treatment might not have been available anyway. Looking up on the named procedure, it seems likely most nations would have declined to offer this treatment, considering it futile in his situation.
Let’s cross that bridge once we get there
I know you think you’re being pragmatic but it’s really just coming off as depraved.
If it’s recommended by the medical team, who the fuck are the insurance company to say no.
Does “not easy” make a treatment not medically necessary then?
Time to let Luigi out for a couple of days I think.
What’s the guy gonna do? Sue them? He’s dead. Murdered by the capitalist authoritarians.
The only rightful place for kings is under the blade of a guillotine.
Guillotines are too 18th century. I am a fan of woodchippers. Feet first, of course!
I don’t want to hear a billionaire shrieking as their toes are mulched. Even if they’re parasites, it’ll still sound like a human shrieking as their toes are mulched.
Just guillotine them and redistribute their wealth already.
I believe this is what is meant by “pull oneself up by one’s bootstraps”
a scimitar would be sufficient.
Can’t the family sue?
Ah yes, America, where corporate murder and tragic loss of life is compensated with money.
fam can do other things as well
The most painful thing we can do to them is take their money and make them live like the rest of us.
IDK man, you got some lemon juice, duct tape, and a cheese grater?
Can we at least carve their highest net worth into their foreheads?
They might appreciate that - an instant indicator that they are different (“better”). Even if it makes it impossible to hide.
luigi tried to tell us
He could have done some side jobs to cover it. I mean, even though it is unethical, I’ve heard that smuggling drugs could help you cover these medical bills. Just not sure how you get into that
What’s ironic is that the big opposition from the GOP to ObamaCare was this ludicrous idea of “Death Panels” weighing human life against budgets.
And yet, when the panels are a dictatorial insurance algorithm, where is that classic 2009-2010 outrage?
Every accusation is a confession with Republicans
You probably already know but, those arguments aren’t why the GOP were outraged. It’s what they thought would be most likely to get the public outraged.
“the public” seems dumb as fuck.
Yes, you can blame the GOP for defunding education as well.
(I have exactly zero love for the Zionazi-owned Dems either but I’m not aware of them ever defunding education)
Or discriminating against gays, or cutting food stamps, or invading Greenland, or storing nuclear secrets in bathrooms, or…
I do recall them being unabashedly genocidal in Palestine though, so I’m not exactly in a rush to give them credit for less-than-the-bare-minimum.
That’s table stakes in the US unfortunately. There’s no option for “no genocide”, you need a complete reform of the electoral system (basically anything newer than 18th century will do) and then some new political parties. But since that is wishful thinking at the moment, the lesser of two evils will do.
There’s no option for “no genocide”
Weird, I was able to find one.
the lesser of two evils will do.
“genocide is the lesser of two evils” is exactly where this mentality has gotten you. You may be compromised enough to sign your name off on that. I am not and never will be.
The public is way less intelligent than “dumb as fuck” hopefully we can get there on the way to marginally dumb. But I doubt it
That no longer matters as they are not the ones in charge anymore…
That’s not true, and a dangerous cop out
That’s not true
We shall see, only time will tell (though it’s interesting that any sitting President is allowed to legally assassinate anyone they want with virtually no oversight that we are told of).
a dangerous cop out
Fair.
The panels are often just an automated script that always replies with Denied the first time too, since people sometimes dont fight it.
They kill us through fraud And theft, and are surprised that we celebrated Luigi’s deeds. The truth is they will only start to care when more of them start to drop. How many more millions need to die because of this BS before we’re ready to bring justice down on their heads as a collective class?
Everyone needs to read Billionaire’s Island.
Is that a euphemism for the Epstein Files?
Nope. It’s a comic that happens to be a cautionary tale to billionaires, that they will absolutely ignore.
None your society is just as complacent as the greedy sociopathic class.
I think you mean complicit. “Complacent” doesn’t make very much sense in that context.
It’s also a hollow edgy take, the likes of which would be expected from a shut-in teenager who doesn’t actually interact with people. Most Americans are exploited to the point of exhaustion, which is a little more complicated than just “they’re complicit”, and some Americans are putting in quite a lot of effort to improve the shithole country we’re from.
Have you ever had a warehouse job, or anywhere else where you can actually speak with the exploited masses? If so, did you speak to them? Have you ever spend time in real-world organizing spaces? Not talking about just going to a protest, I mean getting involved with the people in your community who you’re accusing of being complicit. (PSL doesn’t count.)
Life is not medically necessary
In fact its a massive risk factor.
I work in EMS. My advice to students and brand new EMTs is always the same: don’t freak out when your patient is in cardiac arrest. Those are the easy calls. I have to keep people alive and if someone is crashing in front of me I have to figure out why and what I can try to do to stop it so they don’t die. The ones that are already in cardiac arrest aren’t getting any more dead, and the only outcomes are that we improve on that or we don’t. We can’t make them worse. Dead is the most stable condition.
Edit: That said, one of my favorite things about working in EMS is that I don’t have to care about “medically necessary” or insurance companies. If I think my patient needs a treatment and it’s in my protocol to give it, I give it. I don’t have to ask for an insurance company’s approval or get a payment method from my patients, I just get to help people.
Imagine all medicine working that way.
It does in most of Europe
Thank you for your service and for sharing your insight.
Yeah, but then your patients often get a 3000 dollar “ambulance” bill bcz ambulance companies are still privately run.
Some places have volunteer-only EMT services, and still charge thousands of dollars for an ambulance ride…
Forgive the long comment, and this is very US centered and doesn’t apply to every area in the US. EMS systems vary broadly between states and even municipalities within states…
To put some of that in perspective:
- A new ambulance costs about $250-$400k depending on the type.
- The heart monitors we use are somewhere in the area of $10k-$25k a piece. That’s ONE piece of the equipment that we use, and they need maintenance and replacement every so often.
- There’s all the other equipment, and restock of medical items. Even if something doesn’t get used it has to be on the truck and has to be replaced when it’s outdated.
- Fuel is expensive. The last agency I worked for spent about $400k - $500k a year just on fuel.
- There’s insurance - auto insurance, liability insurance, workman’s comp, etc.
- Keeping an EMS certification active requires ongoing continuing education credits. We take classes constantly to stay current and to be able to renew our cert, which in some states costs money just to renew. I’ve spent hundreds just to be able to work, both in con ed classes and certs. Some agencies will help pay for this cost, and many provide free con ed classes for their providers. This costs money.
- There’s building costs, rent, electric, etc.
- Ongoing vehicle maintenance (ambulances break a LOT)
- administrative costs, and so many more I haven’t listed
And that’s all before you get into paying anyone for their work. You aren’t paying thousands of dollars for YOUR ambulance ride. You’re paying for the fact that the ambulance existed to respond to your emergency in the first place. Many agencies don’t get taxpayer money, and if they do, it’s minimal. My last agency had townships paying them $2k a year to provide 24-7 ambulance service with paid providers. That doesn’t even cover fuel, let alone anything else.
Is it absolutely bullshit that people should have to be bankrupted to pay for an ambulance bill? 100% No one should have to worry about money when they’re having an emergency.
If you don’t like it, advocate for a municipal tax. If every household paid something like $75-$100 a year you could have the best EMS service with well trained, well paid providers using the best, most up to date equipment available and you would never have to worry about an ambulance bill. The places that implement those taxes generally either don’t bill at all or bill insurance and only take what insurance pays them, there’s no balance billing of the patient.
But no one wants extra taxes, even if it could save them thousands of dollars, and for some reason people come out and support funding for the fire departments and the police departments and no one wants to advocate for support and funding for EMS, so instead you get this mess where EMS is somehow expected to hold itself together and be a profitable enough business to self sustain. You end up with a system where providers are underpaid, have to work 70+ hour weeks to survive (and thus are incredibly burnt out and exhausted - you really want a provider who has worked 70 hours in 5 days on 10 hours of total sleep making life or death decisions?), the good providers head to places where they can get better pay, the equipment and ambulances are old and being held together by sheer will of the providers, and patients still have insane bills.
Patients should not fund EMS. Government should fund EMS. It’s a service, not a business, but under the current system in most places, it has to be a business if you want to be able to call 911 and have someone there to respond.
You pretty much addressed my responses to the first half of your comment in the second half.
That all sounds like reasons why the city/county/municipality/state should pay for EMS services.
People are already paying taxes, so it’s not unreasonable for them to expect the governments that they’re funding to provide the critical services that everyone needs. It’s in everyone’s interest to have a smoothly-operating EMS service that doesn’t need to be run likely a business.
Tax money already pays for police, and their budgets are already bloated as is. Why the hell can’t tax money be used to pay for all those costs of maintaining an EMS service? No one should be landed with a multi-thousand dollar bill for having a medical emergency.
Healthcare in general should run this way, but especially emergency medical services. It’s absurd that it isn’t. But too many americans are afraid of the big scary “socialism,” so they continue to let billionaire oligarchs fuck them over like this. It’s insane.
My family member was charged US$3K by the insurance because they were hit by a car outside of their county of residence.
It’s the ultimate pre-existing condition.
Whenever an economic argument is invoked to justify for or against doing something, it’s always a vacuous position.
Economics must be subservient to the needs of the society it exists within.
Heck yes! Even the implementation of AI, and people getting let go. If enough people are unemployed, who’s actually buying the products that these companies are selling, peddled by the same AI that replaced the employees with? Feels like a free for all with these tech, not necessarily watching out for the overall impact on human societies…
