• superkret@feddit.org
    208·
    2 months ago

    When you run OpenSUSE, you can feel it was made by Germans.
    The installer is a beautiful example of German engineering.
    The package manager is a perfect example of German over-engineering.
    If you run it with KDE, you have 2 redundant GUI admin tools for every config in the system, and 4 for setting up printers.

  • Guenther_Amanita 🍄@slrpnk.net
    1764·
    2 months ago

    Sees “Germany”

    Die Kommentarspalte dieser Pfostierung befindet sich ab sofort im Besitz der Bundesrepublik Deutschland meine Kameraden!

      • visc@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        2 months ago

        NixOS is for people who have accidentally uninstalled 90% of their system because they didn’t pay attention to what other packages depend on the thing they were uninstalling and were desperately looking for a an undo button.

    • Zozano@lemy.lolEnglish
      11·
      2 months ago

      I’m still a Linux noob all things considered, and I’ve been using NixOS for six months or more.

      It is HARD, but I see the true value of it. I will never need to reinstall Linux because I broke it, that’s simply impossible.

      If I ever need to migrate my system, it’s all backed up to github. With a single

      Bash update.sh

      every single .config file backed up, system upgraded, all packages updated.

      I just love Nix, it’s the perfect OS for me.

      Now I just need to learn how to use flakes…

      Sidebar: I’ve never asked before, but maybe someone can help me out. If I install a flake of an application, am I supposed to add it to the existing flake, or can I modulate flakes?

      I’ve noticed when installing the nixvim flake it generates a new flake and it runs when I issue the

      nix run ~/.dotfiles/nixvim/flake.nix

      command, but I don’t want to have to run that command every time. I feel like making a fish abbreviation isn’t the correct way of doing this.

      • tinkling4938@lemmynsfw.comEnglish
        3·
        2 months ago

        So I’ve only been using nix about a year and only used flakes. I use in two ways.

        First, I have my main nix flake. Most everything is controlled from that. It has several outputs from full blown nixos builds per host or some home manager builds for non-nixos systems.

        Third-party flakes I use as inputs to my own flake then use the override system to inject them into nixpkgs. Then I just install whatever like normal from nixpkgs. I can either override an existing pkg (neovim nightly replaces regular neovim for me), or you can just add as a new package to nixpkgs by using a different attribute name.

        Second way is for projects with their own repo. I’ll add a project flake that has a devshell with direnv so as soon as I enter that directory it sets up a sort of virtual environment just for that project. You can add outputs to it so others can use as a third-party flake.

        My main starting point was https://github.com/Misterio77/nix-config for this design.

  • Crozekiel@lemmy.zipEnglish
    551·
    2 months ago

    ITT - “I DISAGREE WITH THE FACTUAL ACCURACY OF THE SETUP AND/OR PUNCHLINE OF YOUR JOKE.”

  • specterspectre@lemmy.worldEnglish
    381·
    2 months ago

    I think I’ve put fedora on at least 4 personal systems and it has never caused an issue. It’s so smooth it’s boring in the best way. Switched to it for daily computing about 4 years ago. I use a minipc as a media server with Arch and turning it on it’s exciting. Just this fucking morning the default configuration decided that my main audio device was a microphone. Lovely. So flexible.

    • Lucy :3@feddit.org
      2·
      2 months ago

      On the other hand, my server running Arch testing has never had any issues. In fact, the only issue on any of my devices, all Arch testing, was nvidia.

      • specterspectre@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        2 months ago

        This is a YMMV situation. I had Gentoo running on a minipc for a while and it never had any random issues pop up. Any screw up was fully traceable to configuration and entirely my fault. It was kinda funny. Hope your server stays healthy.

  • TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org
    383·
    2 months ago

    I mean, I’m on Debian and I’m on the same install instance I’ve had for almost four years now. I’m constantly reading about how some of you people keep hosing your other distros with a normal update…

    • Draghetta@lemmy.world
      131·
      2 months ago

      Real. Though sometimes running a recent version of something is a real challenge, unless it ships in appimage. If it’s a small program you can usually backport the package from unstable or just build it yourself, but if it depends on some rust or js libraries or whathaveyou you have to do so much crap you might as well just be running trixie

    • JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl
      4·
      2 months ago

      Lol, I ran 5 years on arch without a break.

      Now 6 months of Bazzite without a break.

      I think the age of distros shipping severely broken updated is over. And it was always, ALWAYS grub that broke after an update on mint and opensuse 10 years ago for me.

  • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
    4112·
    2 months ago

    I’ll never stop hating that debian is labeled stable. I’m fully aware that they are using the definition of stable that simply means not updating constantly but the problem is that people conflate that with stability as in unbreaking. Except it’s the exact opposite in my experience, I’ve had apt absolutely obliterate debian systems way too often. Vs pacman on arxh seems to be exceptionally good at avoiding that. Sure the updated package itself could potentially have a bug or cause a problem but I can’t think of any instance where the actual process of updating itself is what eviscerated the system like with apt and dpkg.

    And even in the event of an update going catastrophically wrong to the point that the system is inoperable I can simply chroot in use a statically built binary pacman and in a oneliner command reinstall ALL native packages in one go which I’ve never had not fix a borked system from interrupted update or needing a rollback

    • dezmd@lemmy.worldEnglish
      181·
      2 months ago

      You are maybe conflating stability with convenience.

      “Why is this stable version of my OS unstable when I update and or install new packages…”

      The entire OS falling down randomly on every distribution during normal OS background operations was always an issue or worry, and old Debbie Stables was meant to help make linux feel reliable for production server use, and it has done a decent job at it.

      • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
        41·
        2 months ago

        I mean when I can take an Arch Linux installation that I forgot about on my server and is now 8 years out of date and simply manually update the key ring and then be up to date without any issue but every time I’ve ever tried to do many multiple major version jumps on debian it’s died horrifically… I would personally call the latter less stable. Or at least less robust lol.

        I genuinely think that because Arch Linux is a rolling distribution that it’s update process is just somehow more thorough and less likely to explode.

        The last one with debian was a buster to bookworm jump. Midway through something went horrifically wrong and dpkg just bailed out. The only problem was that it somehow during all of that removed the entirety of every binary in /bin. Leaving the system completely inoperable and I attempted to Google for a similar solution as arch. Where i could chroot in and fix it with one simple line. But so far as I was able to find there is no such option with apt/dpkg. If I wanted to attempt to recover the system it would have been an entirely manual Endeavor with a lot of pain.

        I would also personally label having the tools to recover from catastrophic failure as being an important part of stability especially when people advocate for things like Debian in a server critical environment and actively discourage the use of things like Arch

        If the only thing granting at the title of stability is the lack of update frequency that can simply be recreated on Arch Linux by just not updating frequentlyಠ_ಠ

        • leezh@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          3·
          2 months ago

          No opinion on Debian but as a heavy ArchLinux user I should point out you shouldn’t upgrade without reading the news as occasionally manual intervention is required. Upgrades can and will break things if you’re not careful.

          https://archlinux.org/news/openblas-0323-2-update-requires-manual-intervention/

          https://archlinux.org/news/ansible-core-2153-1-update-may-require-manual-intervention/

          https://archlinux.org/news/incoming-changes-in-jdk-jre-21-packages-may-require-manual-intervention/

        • MrMcGasion@lemmy.world
          2·
          2 months ago

          While I personally agree with your sentiment, and much prefer arch to debian for my own systems, there is one way where debian can be more stable. When projects release software with bugs I usually have to deal with those on Arch, even if someone else has already submitted the bug reports upstream and they are already being worked on. There are often periods of a couple of weeks where something is broken - usually nothing big enough to be more than a minor annoyance that I can work around. Admittedly, I could just stop doing updates when everything seems to be working, to stay in a more stable state, but debian is a bit more broadly and thoroughly tested. Although the downside is that when upstream bugs do slip through into debian, they tend to stay there longer than they do on arch. That said, most of those bugs wouldn’t get fixed as fast upstream if not for rolling distro users testing things and finding bugs before buggy releases get to non-rolling “stable” distros.

          • EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
            2·
            2 months ago

            I honestly don’t see this thorough testing. Not for a lot of apps I use anyway. It’s normal tbf even with 2 year you can’t thoroughly test every package for every bug, so you’re stuck with very old bugs a lot more often than people think. And on top of that some packages are so old that instructions you find on their git pages or wherever are too new and don’t work.

        • fallingcats@discuss.tchncs.de
          31·
          2 months ago

          I mean when I can take an Arch Linux installation that I forgot about on my server and is now 8 years out of date and simply manually update the key ring and then be up to date

          That won’t work, old pacman versions can’t deal with the fact that packages are now zstandard compressed. In fact, the window were you could successful do the update without a whole bunch of additional work was something like a couple of months. Certainly a whole lot less than a year.

          • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
            21·
            2 months ago

            I mean, if you want to use your system pacman sure. But you can just download the latest statically built pacman to do the large jump without issues. However i will concede that is more than JUST keyring update

            Edit: another fun way to get around that issue pretty easily. Boot any up to date arch installer, mount the old ass system root to /mnt and just run

            pacman -Sy

            pacman --sysroot /mnt

            Now just normal syu and the live environment pacman will update the old system, arch/pacman has a plethora of easy ways to get around what would otherwise be show stoppers on apt/dpkg :)

        • pmc@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          1·
          2 months ago

          Did you go buster -> bullseye -> bookworm or just straight to bookworm? It sounds like something got screwed up with the usr merge.

          • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
            2·
            2 months ago

            Straight to bookworm. Sounds like that’s not supported but that just further shows why i don’t find it to be a functionally stable, or perhaps reliable is a better wording, system. But that’s also just my opinion

        • JackbyDev@programming.devEnglish
          1·
          2 months ago

          it would have been an entirely manual Endeavor with a lot of pain.

          It’s funny that your phone auto corrected or you typed a capital E out of habit. I imagine you talk about Endeavor OS a lot lol.

          • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
            21·
            2 months ago

            Was using voice to text, it auto capitalizes words at absolute random. However yes i do use EndeavorOS so it comes up from time to time :p

    • dan@upvote.au
      12·
      2 months ago

      FWIW I’ve got a Debian server that hosts most of my sites and primary DNS server, that’s been running since Etch (4.0, 2007ish). I’ve upgraded it over the years, switched from a dedicated server to OpenVZ to KVM, and it’s still running today on Bookworm. No major issues with upgrades.

      • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
        22·
        2 months ago

        It’s definitely not something that will happen 100%. I’ve also had long standing debian systems that seem to not care. However I’ve had plenty that, for whatever reason couldn’t handle multiple major version hops and just eviscerated themselves, I’ve not had that with arch personally. You may need to download the latest statically built pacman depending on how old it is but that and a keyring update usually has you covered

        • dan@upvote.au
          3·
          2 months ago

          However I’ve had plenty that, for whatever reason couldn’t handle multiple major version hops

          Debian only supports upgrading one major version at a time. If you’re upgrading from Debian 10 to 12, you need to first do 10 to 11, then 11 to 12. Upgrading multiple versions at a time is completely untested and unsupported.

    • Couldbealeotard@lemmy.worldEnglish
      9·
      2 months ago

      They really should have used the word “static” instead of stable. Stable definitely has connotations of functional stability, and unstable of functional instability.

    • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
      82·
      2 months ago

      depends on workload. Debian has very old packages and can be insecure but it is a set it and forget it type of thing, it is good when uptime is critical for a server. For desktops, or servers that need better security, but can tolerate a little downtime, rolling releases are good too, if you are enough to update frequently, and you should, since updates usually contain a lot of patched vulrenabilities

    • friendless@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      41·
      2 months ago

      Good point! But I recently swapped to Debian 12 from Fedora 41. The latter needing constant updates several times a day. And despite this, it was not stable at all.

      • dan@upvote.au
        2·
        2 months ago

        Fedora is good on laptops since it has the very newest kernel and thus includes all the latest driver fixes (which are needed for laptops like the Framework where they’re actively improving things). On the other hand, it has the very newest kernel and thus includes all the latest bugs.

    • pmk@lemmy.sdf.org
      31·
      2 months ago

      To me the issue is the people calling a system stable because it is reliable, even if it updates unpredictably to changing functionality.

  • I_Miss_Daniel@lemmy.worldEnglish
    263·
    2 months ago

    Fedora 41 is now the ‘wait 45 seconds every boot because you don’t have a tpm chip’ version.

    • richardisaguy@lemmy.world
      21·
      2 months ago

      Can i get some context please? My fedora install wasn’t using TPM, i had to manually configure it; i haven’t noticed any difference in boot speed with or without TPM encryption

        • richardisaguy@lemmy.world
          3·
          2 months ago

          I want to have data-at-rest encryption, so that the only password i need to insert is my user one, this allows me to not have to type passwords multiple times. If i had the regular encryption password i would have to enable autologin in SDDM, which would do away with the encryption on kdewallet and all my credentials.

          Plus i also enable secureboot, and use fedora kinoite, so that i is hard to tamper with my boot stuff without my TPM wiping itself off my encryption password, this gives me a very Bitlocker-like setup, but without the shittiness of having my encryption keys linked to microsoft’s terrible encryption system and user accounts, i can actually control my stuff like this. For a laptop, i must say data-at-rest encryption is a must!

          This setup gives me multiple security layers; took my laptop off me -> booted my laptop, faced with user password -> tried to boot another OS, TPM wiped itself, no more encryption key -> computer now asks for encryption password, has to find a way around LVM2 encryption -> LVM2 encryption (somehow) defeated they must now crack my user password, or have to (try) to decrypt my credentials on the file system itself; after all these convoluted and extremely hard steps i think we can agree this person really deserves to have access to my cool wallpapers

        • rzlatic@lemmy.ml
          1·
          2 months ago

          so if it probably affects only a small number of specific hw platforms, you cannot state fedora as “now wait 40 seconds” distro.

          i’m also not using the tmd chip, no issues.

    • _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      331·
      2 months ago

      I’ve never had any issues with my Arch install being unpredictable. It has always worked exactly as I expected it to, even though I update it every couple of days.

      • luluu@lemmy.world
        353·
        2 months ago

        It has always worked exactly as I expected it to

        Just expect it to break, then it will behave as expected taps head

      • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
        222·
        2 months ago

        I’ve been using Arch since 2014. If I could be arsed, I could write you a looooooooong list of regressions I’ve had to deal with over the years. For an experienced Linux user, they’re usually fairly easy to deal with, but saying you never have to deal with anything is just a lie.

        My experience with Arch is basically: it’s all very predictable until it isn’t and you suddenly find yourself troubleshooting something random like unexplainable bluetooth disconnects caused by a firmware or kernel update.

        • Dempf@lemmy.zip
          5·
          2 months ago

          What you’ve said is true, though it’s a bit of a trade-off – over the years I’ve wasted so many hours with those “user friendly” distros because I need a newer version of a dependency, or I need to install something that isn’t in the repos. Worst case I have to figure out how to compile it myself.

          It’s very rare to find something that isn’t in the Arch official repos or the AUR. Personally I’ve found that being on the bleeding edge tends to save me time in the long run, as there’s almost no barriers to getting the packages that I need.

          • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
            31·
            2 months ago

            What you’ve said is true, though it’s a bit of a trade-off

            Yes, and that’s why after more than 10 years I still use Arch. I like having the latest version of things and I’m confident enough in my abilities that I know that if something breaks I can always either find a fix, or at least identify the offending package, hold it back, report the bug and wait for the issue to be resolved.

            There are times where it can be trying though. The first plasma 6 releases for example were rough. More recently, I’ve also been having issues with 6.11 and 6.12 kernels and my ax200 wifi that I only recently found a fix to. My wifi would freeze whenever I started streaming video from the PC to my TV, but only in kernels after 6.11. Turning off TCP segmentation offloading with ethtool resolved it (ethtool -K wlan0 tso off). You don’t want to know how long I had been pulling my hair out at that issue until I found the fix.

        • _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          33·
          2 months ago

          Did you consider that the problems you have might not be problems that other people experience? I very highly doubt our two systems are at all similar. Your experience is just that, yours, and so you don’t have any right to be arbitor over whether or not I’m lying.

          • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
            62·
            2 months ago

            That’s such a cop-out answer and totally missing the point. I’ve run Arch on 4 different systems, and yes I had different issues on each and sometimes issues that hit across the board.

            At the end of the day, whether or not this was just my personal experience doesn’t matter. What matters is that the issues were always caused by what Arch is: a unstable rolling release distro that pushes out the latest version of upstream packages, bugs and all. Sooner or later some will hit you, telling yourself and other people otherwise is deluding yourself and those people.

            • _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
              22·
              2 months ago

              Yeah, and sooner or later, I’ll die of old age, or cancer, or an accident, or get audited on my taxes.

              None of those things have happened yet either. Not only that, but the same is true for every operating system that has ever existed, or will ever exist, including every distro of Linux.

              • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
                32·
                2 months ago

                Here’s the thing: your answer is both invalidating and ignorant, and it shows a lack of understanding of what differentiates Arch from a stable distro.

                • My wifi, that had been working fine since I installed this computer in 2020, broke in kernel 6.11 and 6.12 because Arch pushed those updates.
                • Early plasma 6.0 releases were rough as balls for months, because Arch pushed those updates.
                • My bluetooth, that had been working since I installed this computer in 2020, started to randomly disconnect sometime last year due to buggy firmware updates because Arch pushed those updates.
                • Hell even plain old intel ethernet on my old system from 2014 suddenly started hanging up under load a year or two ago (never found the cause, did find a workaround).

                None of these issues were a fault of my own, all I did was pacman -Syu, and none of this would happen on a stable distro. I’m not saying Arch is shit because of this, I’m saying: beware of what you are getting into when you choose Arch: for every single package on your system, you are effectively at the mercy of whatever “upstream” decides to shit out that week. Being delusional about that fact and having guys come crawling out of the woodworks everytime this is mentioned, saying platitudes like: “I nEvEr HaD aN iSsUe” doesn’t help anyone.

      • pmk@lemmy.sdf.org
        1·
        2 months ago

        Do you use your computer for things that rely on specific library versions and functionality?

      • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
        12·
        2 months ago

        imagine if you update it after 2 weeks. Arch is okay, if you keep backups. otherwise, you are basically playing a russian roulette

        • _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          1·
          2 months ago

          I don’t like waiting that long, because sitting for an hour while it recompiles everything that updated is annoying. I like the daily or so updates that only take a couple minutes.

      • kekmacska@lemmy.zipEnglish
        1·
        2 months ago

        i started learning about linux 4 months ago. Installed Arch with archinstall pretty easily to a VM, it booted up no problem. But you have to manually install the desktop, if you want a gui (who doesn’t lol). But there are many desktops for Arch, the most common ones have pretty good documentation. But if i were you, i’d experiment with some more niche desktop emviroments

        • 1985MustangCobra@lemmy.caEnglish
          1·
          2 months ago

          I haved used many distros and DEs. my favorites are keyboard driven like i3 and such. For now i use fedora because i needed something to work out of the box. I would like to stay in the terminal.

        • Spectrism@feddit.org
          21·
          2 months ago

          No need to manually install desktop environments, archinstall also does that (Profile --> Desktop).

            • Spectrism@feddit.org
              2·
              2 months ago

              You did, probably just didn’t see it ;) It’s been part of it for years, since around 2020 according to GitHub. But to be fair, calling the option “Profile” might not be very intuitive for some people, so it’s easy to miss.

      • MehBlah@lemmy.worldEnglish
        1·
        2 months ago

        Just use kvm/qemu and install it. When I want to play with detailed setups I install slackware and start configuring/compiling.

    • Asetru@feddit.org
      8·
      2 months ago

      It is? I had tumbleweed installed and switched to fedora after only a few weeks because it kept freezing.

      • DaddleDew@lemmy.world
        9·
        2 months ago

        Weird. I promptly tried Fedora and switched to Tumbleweed after Fedora kept crashing soon after startup. Hardware configuration probably affects the outcome a lot.

        • Natanox@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
          2·
          2 months ago

          The only fair comparison of Linux distros is always on devices of Linux vendors as they both pick the right hardware as well as merge Kernel patches if necessary.

          I do however concur that OpenSuse offers basically everything. Except for intuitive system settings - but at least they’re all there, you never really have to use the CLI. Other than with others who will eventually lack something. Also the bootable btrfs snapshots by default are a dream for common users.

      • festnt@sh.itjust.works
        3·
        2 months ago

        oh my girlfriend’s laptop also just keeps freezing with opensuse. do you have an nvidia card by any chance?

        • Boxscape@lemmy.sdf.org
          7·
          2 months ago

          nvidia card by any chance?

          I think random freezing is one of the symptoms of installing it with Ventoy. Ventoy mucks up one of the installer flags or something like that, so even the wiki indicates it’s not supported. (Neither is installing it from the Live tester, if I’m not mistaken.)

          • Natanox@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
            6·
            2 months ago

            Correct! Ventoy adds boot parameters on its own, screwing up some fundamental settings (sth. that can happen on any distro that isn’t making the user configure everything by hand). It’s also a questionable piece of software on its own given the binary blob it adds to every stick… do not use it.

          • festnt@sh.itjust.works
            2·
            2 months ago

            oh well, i guess it must be a different problem on my gf’s laptop since we used dd to put the iso in a pen drive

  • gsfraley@lemmy.world
    17·
    2 months ago

    Fedora is security? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I love it, it’s my daily driver after trying just about every distro under the sun, but I would’ve figured something like Qubes would stand head and shoulders above it.

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
        12·
        2 months ago

        Outside of everything else that has MAC enabled by default. It doesn’t even ship with a Firewall.

        • snowfalldreamland@lemmy.ml
          3·
          2 months ago

          Fedora has firewalld by default but in the desktop version all ports are open by default. Pretty sure the server version only has ssh and cockpit exposed by default

        • qqq@lemmy.world
          2·
          2 months ago

          I haven’t looked around that much in years beyond NixOS, what else has MAC by default these days? I remember a lot of the Debian based ones having some things constrained by AppArmor, but I personally prefer SELinux and it wasn’t everything.

          I don’t know if it ships with a firewall, but that’s definitely easier than an ad hoc SELinux setup. I always just transfer my iptables (nftables now) rules over.

    • Hellfire103@lemmy.caOPEnglish
      83·
      2 months ago

      Qubes is specialised, whereas Fedora is a general purpose distro with a security focus.

            • qqq@lemmy.world
              2·
              2 months ago

              AppArmor is great but it isn’t nearly as powerful as SELinux. Way more user friendly though.

              • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
                2·
                2 months ago

                It can be but it takes a lot more effort.

                SELinux: high bar to entry but extremely power right away

                Apparmor: lower bar to entry but much harder to get advanced functionality and control

                • qqq@lemmy.world
                  1·
                  2 months ago

                  Yea, but there are also some things AppArmor just can’t do. Although in my experience most aren’t as big of a deal. Things like saying “only processes of this type can bind to port X” for example and much more fine grained control of file or directory actions. Does AppArmor provide kernel module controls?

                  They both have really bad documentation though :(

    • Guenther_Amanita 🍄@slrpnk.net
      1·
      2 months ago

      Maybe Fedora Atomic?

      I mean, image based (immutable) distros are quite a bit more secure than regular ones, and Fedora Atomic (Silverblue, Bazzite, etc.) is pretty much the only great choice when it comes to those kind of operating systems.