• SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I get that this is not the hill to die on in this meme, but the tracks should really be reversed.

    This implies “doing nothing” will only sacrifice Palestine, while “pulling the lever” (i.e. voting) will sacrifice Palestine+all other at risk groups.

    Otherwise, this really is a classic trolly dilemma. We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.

    • Aqarius@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Yeah, but that would require an understanding of the trolley problem as a philosophical dilemma, and how are you gonna use that to yell at people you hate?

    • ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.

      We really fucking can, it just requires more people to care enough to be willing to do more than the bare fucking minimum of participating in this theatre those profiting from war have set out for us, and look outside of the system you have indoctrinated to believe isn’t only the default, but the best (and if this doesn’t demonstrate that fact to you, I honestly think you’re beyond help).

      • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        I fully believe the system we live in is broken, and is nowhere near “the best”. But the system does have many people who are indoctrinated, and many who benefit from it too greatly to make me believe we have sufficient time to derail it before some of the death implied in this meme comes.

        But if you have a plan more tangible then telling people “wake up sheeple!”, then I’m ready to hear it. And if it’s actually convincing, then I’m ready to help.

        But randomly telling people they have been indoctrinated, declaring it to be self evident, and then accusing them of being beyond help if they don’t see it, is nothing more than pointless moral masturbation. Maybe it makes you feel better, but it’s not helping nor convincing anyone.

        Let me know what your plan is when you have it figured out. In the mean time, I’m going to go back to helping who I can.

    • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      Right, and one of the main, basic ways in which one can consider the trolley problem is that, regardless of the difference in outcomes, pulling the lever makes you morally responsible for what happens.

      • dadarobot@lemmy.sdf.org
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        2 months ago

        Also not pulling the lever makes you morally responsible if you “stand by and do nothing”

            • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              “doing nothing is a decision” is a legitimate position you can argue for, but it is not some kind of settled moral fact that you can just assert without any justification.

              • phdepressed@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                It’s less a moral fact and more a fact of life. If you don’t pay bills you get late fees then stop getting the service. If you don’t study you don’t do as well as studying a little or a lot. If you don’t make a move on the girl you like someone else will and/or she’ll move on. If you don’t stop facism…

                “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

                In politics the don’t vote and vote third party are essentially the same of doing nothing until ftfp is fixed.

        • superkret@feddit.org
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          2 months ago

          Unless the lever is in another country and you’re just paying the guy pulling the lever, then “there’s nothing I can do”.

        • porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Yes that’s my point exactly, people love to dogpile on anyone who doesn’t jump at the easy consequentialist solution, but there are other valid interpretations

    • mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      This meme also implies that the current US strategy is not to fund Ukraine just enough to take Russia to Hell with it. It also implies the Democrats don’t rely on anti-LGBTQ votes because one single comment made by Waltz. This meme also implies Democrat are pushing laws to combat police brutality (at least fix this at local or state levels in cities where they hold the majority).

      The Democrats here now have worse arguments than the tankies.

      • auzy@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Kamala literally used to fight for sexual assault victims and such

        Walz used to fight for his school kids

        Trump bragged on Howard Stern about perving on young girls and is a convicted rapist

        You do realize there is both a house and Senate right, and unless they have control of both, they can’t necessarily just push laws. That’s what politics is

        And in the past few years, the Republicans have only been interested in sabotage it seems (if Trump loses this election, there is a better chance they will be more willing to work when Democrats)

        They’re not relying on this shit. The most commonly cited reason even by Republicans voting for Harris is that Trump is a dictator that wants to ruin the country

  • lazylion_ca@lemmynsfw.com
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    2 months ago

    I’m hoping once Harris takes office that she can improve the Isreal/Palestine situation. But I suspect for now she has to keep her cards close or she’ll lose some key support.

    Politics has been an old-boys club for a long time. She probably has to tread carefully until she knows if she has a majority or not.

    • boywar3@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I actually wonder if she has a different stance on Israel but simply will not/cannot talk about it because she is also the VP and it’s a “bad look to go against the boss,” so to speak.

      • ayyy@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        She’s a Democrat. She will follow whatever AIPAC says. It’s foolish to wish otherwise. The president is not a monarch and must pick a few key issues to make changes to. The rest is up to the legislature.

        • boywar3@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          My musing is not the sole reason why I’m voting for Harris, but you are correct that it is not exactly up to her (which of course kind of undermines the continuous claims I see from people saying she could end the genocide right this second).

    • gdog05@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I appreciate the optimism but Harris being elected is far from a foregone conclusion. Far, far. Between tricks and the electoral college, it needs to be a blowout to win. And we’re not seeing a blowout so far. I am hopeful as hell, but not affording optimism.

    • WrenFeathers@lemmy.worldM
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      2 months ago

      I’m hoping the same thing. Politics is a complicated game. The first person to say they understand how it all works is the first person I wouldn’t trust to explain any of it to a third grader.

      We’re all making best guesses on almost everthing.

    • oyo@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      She won’t do shit cause she has to get reelected in four years.

      • ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        She won’t do shit cause she has to get reelected in four years. like the rest of the democratic party don’t give a shit about Palestinians, nor disturbing the status quo.

        FTFY

    • index@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago

      They are already in office, they are the vice president of the united states, the second highest charge in the country

      • nyctre@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President_of_the_United_States

        Presides over the Senate, but can’t even vote in it. Unless there’s a tie. And she’s an advisor to the president. Literally less actual power than a random senator.

        And then you get offended when people call you russian bots. You’re either knowingly or unknowingly spreading misinformation. In the end, the result is the same.

        • index@sh.itjust.works
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          2 months ago

          “The vice president of the United States (VPOTUS) is the second-highest office in the executive branch of the U.S. federal government, after the president of the United States, and ranks first in the presidential line of succession.”

          Second highest office

          • nyctre@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            Second highest office, but with less power than a random senator, as I’ve said. You’ve brought it up by implying that she’s in power now and she’s not doing anything with that power. And I’m telling you and everyone reading that it’s bullshit because despite the name and ranking, she’s powerless. Can’t even vote in the Senate.

  • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    I was going to make this, but put Palestine before the fork. And then put the person away from the lever refusing to participate when pulling the lever would move it to a track with nobody on it. Or pulling a different lever that does nothing (labeled Jill Stein).

    Palestine is and will continue to get run over regardless who wins the presidency, so they aren’t exactly relevant to the choice. It’s not a real trolley problem because it’s not a trade for different people. It’s just “let the trolley run over Ukrainians, lgbtq+ people, minorities, and immigrants” or… don’t. And then refusing to touch the lever because it somehow makes you “love genocide” to have anything to do with the trolley, even if to mitigate the damage.

    • Zachariah@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Please also put someone on the trolley with control over the brake and label them: Israeli leaders, military, and citizens. Since the trolley doesn’t actually need to go anywhere, regardless of whether the US track-switching money/arms are sent.

    • Phen@lemmy.eco.br
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      2 months ago

      I think a good representation would be to put the trolley already running over Palestine and then having to choose between keeping things as they are or adding the others + speeding up the train.

      Or, changing the premise a little further, show the person as choosing between continuation, upgrade and using his own body to derail the trolley.

    • glitchdx@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Please do, I’d love to be able to just slap that image down whenever “bUt tHe gEnOcIdE!” comes up around here.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        The anti-genocide group sees both main parties as driving the trolley. They would like them to just maybe hit the brake, noone needs to be run over. They see the lever as irrelevant because again just please stop the trolley.

        • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Unfortunately, that argument doesn’t fit with one of the primary aspects of The Trolley Problem - it involves a runaway trolley. The obviously-preferred solution to “stop the trolley” isn’t an option, because stopping the trolley isn’t possible.

          Edit: Can’t tell what about this comment deserved so many downvotes? I imagine we all agree that “stopping” the Trolley would be best, but the real life “Trolley” (ie the current genocide) is just as unstoppable (between now and election day) as the metaphorical one. It’s horrible, I agree, but protest-voting third party (or arguing to just “stop the Trolley”) isn’t a solution.