• manuallybreathing@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      imperialism is the subjugation of one country for the benefit of the first. DPRK is not imperialist (how could it be under UN sanctions), PRC is not imperialist, USSR was not imperialist.

      Communists critically support the DPRK, the USSR, and the PCR, progressive liberals uncritically support Obama, Biden, conservative liberals uncritically support Trump, Bush, etc

      read lenin.

      https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

      Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?

      It won’t do!

      It won’t do!

      You must investigate!

      You must not talk nonsense!

      https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-6/mswv6_11.htm

      The instance you use is named after an Ikea plush. I will not debate you.

        • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          After 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda, of course many countries in Eastern Europe may “disagree”. As a currently ongoing example, the other day there was an article ( paywalled, but you can read it pasting the link in 12ft.io ) in the Spanish newspaper “El País” about a new museum in Moldova dedicated to the forcibly relocated to other parts of the USSR during the late 30s. The article talks about the horrors of Stalinism and how 90k people from the region were forcibly relocated in 1937-1941, although the majority were allowed to return in the 50s. All that’s good, having a memory of our history is a good thing. But then, the article goes on with some conversation with the “Director of the National Agency of Archives in Moldova”, Igor Casu. I’ll translate to Spanish:

          Casu considers that the war in neighboring Ukraine started by Russia has made the [Moldovan] citizens begin to perceive the Soviet regime as one of occupation and colonisation

          So, basically, conflating the current imperialist capitalist Russia with communist USSR. But the funny part comes now, when they actually quote Casu:

          “We hope that if the deportations keep being exposed ni the following five years, we’ll achieve that a solid part of the population will be really informed, and, at the same time, that they’ll consolidate a national identity”

          So, they’re going FULL mask-off, and basically saying “we want to show this particular side of history not with the objective of remembrance of victims, but actually to create a new national identity based on the independence from supposedly oppressive Russia”. Fostering nationalism and anti-Russian sentiment as part of the new national identity. This is the recipe that’s been successfully applied to most of Eastern Europe for the past 30+ years, and you can see the results by asking any Polish person what they think of Russians. If this isn’t clear enough, the article reminds us:

          During the last years, under the rule of the pro-European government, this ex-Soviet republic has been making efforts to propagate knowledge of the suffering created by the phenomenon of “Russification” that took place […]

          Mind you, not a single reference in the article or the monument, to the 140.000 Jews deported by the Nazis during the 1940s invasion in Moldova, of whom 90.000+ were murdered in concentration camps. Let’s remember the victims of horrors of our history, but only those politically convenient to us now. Since we want to get closer to western Europe, including Germany, let’s put those killed by Nazis (many more than by Soviets) aside for now.

          If you look at historical evidence, you can’t possibly make the argument that Estonia was subjugated and exploited by the USSR. The local language was preserved and there was an abundance of written publications in Estonian, people were allowed to study in the local language, the salaries were similar to those in the rest of the USSR (or higher actually), industrialization rates were equal or higher to those of the rest of the USSR, number of doctors/teachers and hospital beds per capita were equal… really, none of the telltales of imperialism are there. If you want to see a discussion with actual data regarding this, I suggest you have a look at “Human Rights in the Soviet Union” by Albert Szymanski, a wonderful book filled to the brim with data and a rather nuanced discussion.

          So let’s not pretend that there hasn’t been a strong effort from pro-western authorities in all of Eastern Europe into pushing the narrative that this made-up historically continuous “Russia” has been exploiting and colonising Eastern Europe, and let’s not pretend that the opinion of most people in Eastern Europe who’ve been exposed to this campaign for the past 3 decades is unbiased and historically accurate (because public opinion never is).

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Cool. The USSR still invaded and annexed Estonia. And Lithuania. And Latvia. And Armenia. Shall I go on?

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Funny, invading multiple countries and making them part of your country sure sounds like it fits that definition to me.

    • Diplomjodler@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      And by “liberal” you mean anyone who dares criticise Daddy Putin and Supreme Leader Xi, amirite?

      • TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        5 months ago

        Dude my very first sentence was “Fuck all imperialist and hierarchical power structures.” How can you think that I support China or Russia?

        • SoJB@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          You seem to be under the impression that liberals have a logically and ethically consistent belief structure.

          The realization that liberals are unscratched fascists is a tough one, but you are one of the few intelligent folks able to recognize it… it’s a curse.

  • Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    These “tankies” are conservative right-wing shitbag trolls trying to convince the normal people that supporting oppression and dictators is somehow “left-wing”. Do not fall for their conservative bullshit.

    Just like any other conservative, every word they utter is deception or manipulation. Tankies are conservative trolls through and through.

    • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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      5 months ago

      That’s a no true Scotsman argument.

      There are plenty of actual tankies here. In fact, the Lemmy software is created by tankies and one of the larger Lemmy instances is run by them.

      • LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
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        5 months ago

        From what I’ve seen, there’s a big divide amongst the tankies. There are those who are basically Stalin MAGA, base their political opinions on Soviet aesthetics and don’t consider much the practical implications of their actions. Some simply lash out against mainstream liberal ideology and others are just trolls.

        Ane the other camp is made of people who read a lot of communist philosophy and are absolutely convinced the only way to achieve an equal society is by forcing everyone into it. This has its own problems, but they at least have an internally coherent ideology.

        That’s not to say I agree with either camp. Their ideology promotes a vanguard party which can quickly spiral into “some are more equal than others”. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that. But I do understand where the second camp is coming from. I think the path to a better world lies in trade unions and people coming together to defend common interests.

        • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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          5 months ago

          When they are actively censoring and banning people who make critical comments about the PRC, the USSR, or even present day Russia, I don’t care where they come from.

          I was banned from lemmy.ml myself for saying something about the Tiananmen Square massacre.

          • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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            5 months ago

            You got banned for a month because you posted an off topic anti-China meme in the thread looking for moderators of the memes sub with the text “Why, so you can censor some more posts critical of China? The modlog of this sub is absolutely ridiculous:”

            The ban expired a month ago so I guess feel free to go back.

            E: after more carefully scrutinizing the images in the modlog, you posted a screenshot of people being banned or having posts removed for posting gore and debunked sinophobic stuff.

            • ieatpillowtags@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              Debunked sinophobic stuff like what? In my experience, that category includes anything critical of China, including Tiananmen Square.

              • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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                5 months ago

                I think there were two links to the gore page people post and a couple of responses saying you couldn’t even talk about tiannamen square.

                The first is clear what it is, I’d call the second one sinophobic because it’s patently untrue and is basically an anti-china buzzword now. Idk why mods did what they did.

                • WhatTrees@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                  5 months ago

                  Genuine question, is criticism of the Israeli government, even based on falsehoods or misunderstandings, antisemitism?

                  To say that reference to a historical event that the CCP doesn’t believe happened the way the west does is sinophobic is on the same level. At best you’d have people with unjustified animus towards the government of China but not its people. After all, is the claim that the people of China collectively slaughtered those student protesters demanding reasonable changes to a corrupt system or that the government did so?

          • uis@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            or even present day Russia,

            How did this even happened? How can anyone not right-wing ban for opposing Putin’s oligarchs like Usmanov, Roldugin, Rotenberg, Yakunin and Putin himself?

      • uis@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Wait, really? It says more about USA than about Korea. How does one become even worse than Korea? It is antiachivement.

        • Shardikprime@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          In literally no instance is the USA worse than north Korea. Unless you count the lack of murder death camps and a supreme dictator for life as something to be better at

      • Andromxda 🇺🇦🇵🇸🇹🇼@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        I’m seeing more and more tankies migrate to lemmy.world, because they don’t do anything against them, but lemmy.world is also much less likely to get defederated by other instances. Fuck big, centralized instances. People should move to smaller, niche servers like db0, blahaj.zone, beehaw, etc.

  • cygnus@lemmy.ca
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    5 months ago

    Lemmy was originally built by and for tankies, so this is completely unsurprising. The .ml TLD on the original instance isn’t a coincidence.

  • HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com
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    5 months ago

    heck you don’t even have to go that far. the second picture can be pretty much every republican president whos held office. When was the last ware we started happen while a dem president was in office?

      • mecfs@lemmy.worldOP
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        5 months ago

        More like a defense of merchant ships attacked by houthis.

        I wouldn’t call that a “war started by Joe Biden”.

        • Psionicsickness@reddthat.com
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          5 months ago

          Well Wikipedia considers it a war, I bet the poor mother fuckers that died think so too, but that list has 7 other conflicts that Obama started, weirdly there isn’t a single one by the ultimate mega hitler everyone is talking about.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            ultimate mega hitler

            If Trump wins and he starts marching the Latino and queer people into camps like in the threats his people are making, I want you to remember that you said this.

                • Psionicsickness@reddthat.com
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                  5 months ago

                  Show me where anyone is threatening internment camps for gay people.

                  The Latino thing is going to be the exact same thing that all 4 of the last sitting presidents did, but you’re going to act like it’s worse when someone red is in charge.

  • DaBabyAteMaDingo@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    People here claiming it’s not the case are just wrong. I’ve been banned from multiple instances and had posts deleted by these bozos. Actually authoritarians lol

    • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      I’ve been banned from communities and had comments and posts deleted in lemmy.world with the mod notice being “commie”.

  • Kedly@lemm.ee
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    5 months ago

    Oooooh, this thread’ll let my blocklist feast for days as the Tankies come out to whatabbout

    Edit: Man yall are too kind! Thank you for helping me make Lemmy a more intelligent place! <3

  • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
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    5 months ago

    I’d upvote the meme if it wasn’t also controversial to criticize all war criminals, including both those at the top and the bottom.

    Edit: For a source, see people in this thread rushing to argue and feel called out when someone criticizes “all forms of imperialism”, including the Western ones.

    • Valmond@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      “Let’s criticise everything.”

      I mean there is a difference, and hearing “let’s criticise joe biden” after hearing about russia killing half a million people gets daunting in the long run. It feels like a new form of whataboutism.

      Sure we should criticise all bad things, but I don’t really feel we are not criticising the west, quite the opposite. China, NK, Iran (Russia starts to get some, but not enough IMO) not so much.

      What about Morocco? Mauretania, Kirgizistan or Libya? Or should we only have criticism for modern societies?

      I’m open for discussion of course.

  • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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    5 months ago

    I can agree with the text while being against the authoritarians pictured.

    I just hope people don’t think that everyone complaining about US imperialism is somehow fine with Russian or Chinese actions of the same hue.

    The US as least has a flawed democracy.

    • neidu2@feddit.nl
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      5 months ago

      It’s actually a breath of fresh air to see your comment. It seems way too common in certain communities and instances that “Because US has Its flaws, any opposing regime must be perfect”.

      I’m not American, and most of my political standpoints boil down to anti-authoritarianism, bordering anarchism. But I’m also a pragmatist who’d take Biden over Mao any day.

      Fun fact: I’m on Xi Jinpings payroll. Not directly, but follow the hierarchy far enough upstream, and you end up with him. How’s that for pragmatism?

      Anyway, I forgot where I was going with this, but it was probably my usual point: I’m fine with communists (to a certain degree). I’m not sure if you consider yourself one, but the fact that you’re not a tankie who thinks Stalin did nothing wrong earns you points in my book. I’ll pass on the word to Santa, Stoltenberg, Harris, and the other decadent imperial leaders to let them know that you deserve more than coal for Christmas or whatever your preferred winter holiday is.

      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net
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        5 months ago

        I would consider myself socialist/communist/anarchist fluid lol. The more faith I have in the goodness of people, the more anarchistic I feel. I’d say it boils down to the same for most. We all want a better world, but disagree on what will actually work to get us there

        • neidu2@feddit.nl
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          5 months ago

          Personally, I’d be interested in seeing anarcho-syndicalism implemented on a large scale, but there’s a lot of societal infrastructure that needs to be in place first.