• catloaf@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    I am once again asking for meat and dairy subsidies in the US to be shifted to alternatives like plant-based products and lab meat.

    One of the biggest barriers to alternatives is the cost. Currently they cost like twice as much as the “normal” product. If they cost a roughly equal amount, more people would start buying them instead. The US has huge agriculture subsidies; we could shift them to alternatives to encourage a change in production and a change in retail purchasing.

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Yeah, meat is so heavily subsidized. And I’ll acknowledge that this is one of those problems that you can’t really solve unless you’re willing to yank your political career and your party. People don’t want to quit meat like they don’t want gas to be expensive enough to account for the damage done by using it

    • Kidding_me@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Personally, I do not want any lab grown meat, and as for the pseudo burgers and chicken (I grew up vegetarian) the “nutritional” benefits are not their due to over processing

      • citrusface@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        That’s one opinion. I will take all of the lab grown meat thanks. I’m vegetarian, working to vegan. If there was pork chop that came out tomorrow that was made in a lab and no pig died for it - I’m fucking eating it.

        Impossible foods have allowed me to go veggie, so I think we should sing their praises.

        • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          but why would you eat something that makes you sick? meat is meat. the artificial one will make you sick as well.

          • citrusface@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            ???

            Humans are omnivores. Meat doesn’t make us sick. Over consumption makes us sick. I don’t eat impossible for every meal. I eat it maybe once or twice a week.

            • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              but that is what the article is about? meat makes us and the planet sick, apparently.

              thats what the report finds, its in the title.

              • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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                3 months ago

                Just because one thing is healthier doesn’t mean the other makes you sick.

                Your dumb logic is what makes me sick.

          • orgrinrt@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Probably for the same reasons a lot of us humans are drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco. And eating intense amounts of sugar.

      • Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        3 months ago

        Personally, I don’t want to be part of a human society which purposefully creates huge amounts of suffering for animals (including human animals). Yet, here we are.

        • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          that is a point i can get behind. solid ethics intstead of marketing pseudo meat when you just can eat the plant like it is.

          • Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            3 months ago

            Pseudo meat is a way to help people who miss meat to eat less of it. It’s not a necessary feature of a non-meat diet.

            • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              I think its a way to make money… I kinda stopped believing that Food supppliers are in the buisness for anything other than profit.

      • catloaf@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        That’s fine, you don’t have to eat them. You can still pay a premium for the more environmentally-expensive real meat, instead of the government-subsidized costs we pay now.

      • inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        So? Don’t eat them? I dont see why you are upset at the suggestion of changing our national subsidiaries away from what we know is harming the environment.

        Besides, there is a lot more to eat veg than the proceed Morningstar, Boca, Immposible junk. I mostly eat rice, beans, curry and tofu I prepare myself.

            • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              yeah, well, you got a point there. sure.

              but every media source talks about lab meat like its a viable thing to manufacture, sell and buy. like a real alternative to meat. i found only one place to buy it, read this:

              “For the first time in history, you can buy cultivated meat in retail to cook at home. Our newest product, GOOD Meat 3, is now available to buy in the frozen groceries section at Huber’s Butchery, one of Singapore’s premier producers and suppliers of high-quality meat products. This delicious, shredded chicken is made with 3% cultivated meat in combination with plant-based ingredients, similar to the way we’ve always made our chicken. GOOD Meat 3 gives us a way to make our cultivated meat more readily available, while we continue to scale our technology.”

              so 3 percent lab grown meat is in the thing you can buy.

              https://www.hubers.com.sg/Productlisting.aspx?CatID=SABVAEIARQBSAFMAMQBIAFUAQgBFAFIAUwA=

              but i doubt they sell it, because its not listed in their shop.

              • otp@sh.itjust.works
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                3 months ago

                At this point, it’s basically a technological marvel. You’re definitely right about that.

                Give it 10 years, and I’d be willing to bet you’ll be able to buy 100% lab-grown meat at rates that are at least competitive.

                • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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                  3 months ago

                  competitive to what , thats the question ;-) but yes, you are completely right, i dont know what the future will bring.

              • flerp@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                Every single piece of technology that you use daily without even thinking about it because it is so deeply ingrained in your life at one point had people just like you talking about it just like that. You people never figure out that today isn’t the rest of time. It’s like the opposite of object permanency or something, some people just can’t figure out that now isn’t here forever.

                • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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                  3 months ago

                  i am autistic for a reason, but, its not my goddamn fault that you can’t buy this stuff anywhere, while you vegan folk make playpretend like you could do that.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I wish I could be there the day you bit into what you decided was a delicious burger or steak, only to be told that- *gasp*- it was grown in a lab and that DNA is DNA.

        • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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          3 months ago

          Most meatists like that would just get angry when they encounter that. Saying you tricked them.

          And then they would start eating even more meat just to spite you and vegans.

          It really isn’t that big of an argument I’m afraid.

  • wootz@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    For all those replying with “well yes, we already knew this”.

    Yes, but now you have the numbers to back up the conclusions you’ve already drawn.

    Of course food produced from plants will be environmentally better than those made from animals, but now, next time you see someone actually doubting that, you can rebuff them with numbers and science.

    • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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      3 months ago

      But those numbers already existed. Those conclusions weren’t drawn up out of nothing.

      If 70% of the food we cultivate goes directly to our livestock, then we could only ever eat 30% of it ourselves. Meaning, for something that takes up 1/3 of our plate, we use almost 5 times as much resourses just to feed it as either of the other 2/3.

  • Zier@fedia.io
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    3 months ago

    The most healthy plant based meat alternatives have always been, Beans & Legumes. You’re welcome!

    • Kayday@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      I’m not vegan, but I’ve been trying to limit my groceries to have 1 meat based dinner each week. I have really enjoyed using chickpeas as my protein for lots of different things. My favorite right now is a chickpea shawarma.

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      And they’re easy! Like I enjoy fake meat as a treat, but as my wife can’t eat soy my primary meat replacement is black beans. Sometimes butter beans. It’s great, it’s easy, and I feel good.

      That said the real best is lentils. Nothing is healthy like lentils are. They’re just difficult to cook right

        • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          i fear eating them, since i had 2 days long migraines often, i think cooking them like this is really nesscessary, to get rid of toxins from the outher shell. but i am far to hungry for this method.

          • Zier@fedia.io
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            3 months ago

            Just an FYI, that was a joke. Lentils cook faster than any other bean and you do not need to soak them. They are super healthy for you.

            • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              there are species of lentils you have to soak in water for days, and then cook really long, i didnt made that up.

              • Zier@fedia.io
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                3 months ago

                Interesting. I usually do the French Lentils because they cook the fastest. And regular brown. Red are quick but I usually use those to thicken pasta sauce since they disintegrate but add thickness and protein.

                • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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                  3 months ago

                  there are like 100dreds of different ones ;-)

                  usually, you have to cook them this long because the outer shell has some form of toxin against plant eating animals.

      • Ellia Plissken@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        I tried a Beyond Burger once and all I could taste was beans. I’m not a huge fan of beans, but having a bean flavor with a non-bean consistency is a no-go from my palate.

      • Zier@fedia.io
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        3 months ago

        They are partially made from soy, peas, etc. However what they do is remove parts of the protein from the bean/legume. All the good parts get removed except some protein and a few trace elements. Then you add all kinds of filler chemicals, modifiers, gelling agents that have also been super processed as well. These foods are okay for a once-in-a-while dinner but are not a healthy food. A peanut butter sandwich is way healthier, if you are using pure ground peanuts, no fillers.

  • Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Now make them affordable. Plant based meats cost easily double the price of meat. So I don’t blame people for choosing meat.

    • Shou@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Not where I live. They are about the same price. Depends on the brand and type of product.

      Incidentally… lentil based sausages are horrible on a grill. They downright taste gross when baked. But in a rich vegetable soup? Much better than meat.

      • Evrala@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Yeah, many plant based alternatives are cheaper than meat to produce, but it has become a thing that vegan alternatives are expensive so everyone raises the price to match.

        I forgot the company but around 2015 there was one brand talking up about because of how cheap it was to make it would be a great thing to help with hunger levels in impoverished areas. Just really talking up how they were going to be cheaper than meat. Year later, priced up to match the rest of the brands.

        • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          its tragic and sad. but to get witchhunted by those who get exploited just because pointing that fact out, makes my blood boil.

    • Beaver@lemmy.caOP
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      3 months ago

      I wish it was more obvious to the average person as it is needed to counter the mainstream media’s false narrative that “processed plant-based protein alternatives are less healthy than meat”

      • schizo@forum.uncomfortable.business
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        3 months ago

        Not that I doubt you, but where are you seeing them talk about it AT ALL?

        I’m maybe just looking in the wrong places but beyond the occasional adverpinion piece, it’s not even brought up.

      • Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Both sides suck at arguing this and all it does is make both sides insufferable. Meat eaters like to point out things like protein deficiency, and high amounts of salts and sugars in meat substitutes. Vegans like to point out the saturated fats, cancer rates, and green house emissions. Problem is you’re both right.

        From the article

        The studies authors are calling for “greater nuance” when it comes to discussing the healthiness of plant-based alternatives, as there is considerable disparity between categories in terms of health.

        “Grouping all plant-based alternatives into a single category is an unhelpful strategy for encouraging a shift away from meat and towards more plant-rich diets as it hides a wide variety of options with differing nutrition and health profiles within the plant-based alternative category,” the authors wrote.

        While the study acknowledged that plant-based meat alternatives can be a “useful stepping stone” for encouraging people to shift their diets, they stressed that the less processed alternatives – notably beans and grains – offer “the greatest number of co-benefits.”

        Personally I’m not going to stop eating meat but I’m fine with eating less of it or lab grown after a while (though I’m worried about what the industry would look like on a mass scale). But calling for things like moving all livestock subsidies to meat alternatives and claiming all meat substitutes are inherently healthier is just naive, reactionary, and lack nuance. Discussions between vegans and carnivores go exactly how you expect most internet debates to go.

    • Mac@mander.xyz
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      3 months ago

      You say that but there arent campaigns to disinform people that the sky is actually red.

  • Fleur_@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Oh God oh fuck the admins are gonna kill you for making this post

      • Rooki@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        No, as we humans are omnivores. We can digest non animal fats and dont need directly a heck load of chemicals injected into a block of soy beans paste.

        Additionally WE can make that choice but cats that are obligatory carnivore would never choose vegan as they are obligated to do so.

        If a vegan diet is ethical for a cat is unknown.

        • Miphera@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          a heck load of chemicals injected into a block of soy beans paste.

          Everything’s a chemical, this is just language used to make things sound scary. The taurin that cats need that isn’t found in vegan cat food is identical to the taurin in meat.

          Additionally WE can make that choice but cats that are obligatory carnivore would never choose vegan as they are obligated to do so.

          If you’re so concerned about a cat having a supposedly harmful (the science on this disagrees with you, to be clear) choice made for itself by the human who is keeping it, why are you fine with the choices made for the animals that are kept in awful conditions and then killed for cat food with meat in it? Those animals are also kept by humans and have choices made for them that are unnatural to them, and they are most certainly being harmed.

          If a vegan diet is ethical for a cat is unknown.

          The science on this is pretty clear, and there are plenty of examples of cats thriving on a vegan diet for many many years. Of course, it’s important to consult a specialist and give the cat regular checkups if switching its diet like this.

        • Fleur_@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          Oh shit oh fuck he found us say goodnight .world posters 😱

  • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Next you’re going to say that it’s good that my primary source of protein is high in fiber and fixes nitrogen in the soil. No shit. Over processed food is bad, but meat is really bad for the planet and while it may be healthy in small amounts it’s probably less than every day, much less every meal like is common in the developed world.

        • JustARegularNerd@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Do you have a source? I’d be interested in seeing how the numbers look at present. I otherwise looked into this briefly myself, and this article from ScienceFocus mentions a 2019 study by Oxford University that found more greenhouse gases are released growing lab meat than regular meat, although ScienceFocus argued that if mass produced on a similar scale to regular meat and if renewable energy was used instead, the emissions could be better than regular meat.

          Another website indicates in future tense that lab-grown meat “could cut down on water usage by 90%”

          • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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            3 months ago

            I only have common sense. of course the whole thing is less water intensive then having to nurture an animal for 2 years and then kill it. but you can’t compare industrial waste water and water usage on a farm.

            well, renewable energy… you could say the same for a farm. just put solar on the roof, like they do anyway. yes, you need less diesel for a factory product. but you still need an agricultural product, you don’t grow the stuff out of thin air. so diesel will be the same.

            then you will need lots more of energy. you need technology. you need chemicals. and so on. you need specialist, chemists, industrial mechanics. all that costs a whole lot of ressources, and ratches up co2 footprint as well.

            its like the idea of insect protein.

            i dont think this will realize into reality at all, in a meaningfull scale, i mean. the whole thing is just a technical nightmare.

            its like urban farms with indoor lights and hydroponics. its just not efficient.

  • Veraxus@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Awesome. Now it just needs to be more affordable while tasting just as good. Right now, the stuff that actually tastes like meat is priced like a bougie, elitist luxury good.

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I wish they weren’t all so damn salty though. I get that meat is salty, but the meat alternatives go way too far with the saltiness in general in my experience.

    • i_dont_want_to@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      3 months ago

      So much this. Last time I brought it up, I was asked “what’s the matter, you don’t season your food?”

      Uh… There are more seasonings than SALT, yo. You can add more of it, but once it’s in there…

  • howrar@lemmy.ca
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    3 months ago

    Pork also scored red for salt, while beef and chicken scored amber. Lamb was the only meat to receive a green rating for salt.

    What? Raw meat has a negligible amount of salt. How is it not all green?

    • ijon_the_human@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Didn’t read the article but raw packaged meats are often (depending on local regulation) injected with sodium solutions.

    • Ellia Plissken@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      yeah I can’t figure it out. according to google, raw pork has 53mg of sodium per 3-oz serving, and broccoli has 49. I can’t figure out how to get exactly the salt content but it’s the sodium that’s bad for you, right?

      edit - okay maybe they’re talking about bean based alternatives like soy? that’s got like 4mg, pinto beans have 1

      • howrar@lemmy.ca
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        3 months ago

        Yeah, salt normally refers to sodium content. Salts separate in solution, so you never have actual NaCl unless you have a solid hunk of salt.

        But also, sodium isn’t inherently bad for you. Just like most things we consume, too little is bad, and too much is also bad. 53mg per serving is still so far off from what a typical adult needs.

        • Ellia Plissken@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          yeah but like, who eats 3 oz of pork at a time.

          what do you mean salt separates in solution? you’re not saying it breaks up into sodium and chlorine?

          • howrar@lemmy.ca
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            3 months ago

            I don’t know if you mean that 3oz sounds high or low. It certainly sounds like a normal serving size to me. I normally aim for about 7oz per meal if I’m having pork, but I’m pretty sure that’s on the high end. Even then, it’s just a little over 100mg of sodium. I’ve seen the recommended minimum daily sodium for healthy adults to range anywhere between 500mg and 2000mg depending on the source.

            And yes, I do mean it breaks up into sodium and chlorine. It makes sense to talk about “salt concentration” in the context of salt dissolved in distilled water, but less so when you have so many other things in solution because there’s no straightforward way (to the best of my knowledge, but I’m also no chemist) to map from dissolved ions to the molecules they would’ve been a part of.

            • Ellia Plissken@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              I mean, individual burger patties start at 8 ounces, and people regularly stack them or eat more than one burger

              • howrar@lemmy.ca
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                3 months ago

                Damn that’s huge. In these parts, a quarter pounder is considered large. You’ll only see 8oz patties when you go to fancier restaurants.

        • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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          3 months ago

          One time, i was in hospital, surgery was postponed, and i couldnt eat for two days. they put 4.5 liters of nacl in me, i counted. 40 grams of salt.

          I HAd A HEART AttACK ON THE THIRD DAY

          wait, i made that up. nothing happened at all. i just peed a lot, and watched a lot of mukbang videos.

    • addictedtochaos@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      they also gave red points because of saturated fats. fun fact: in thise studies red meat vs. diabetis, a pizza with salami gets counted as red meat.

  • Etterra@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Like I’m gonna let you talk me into giving up pepperoni pizza just to stretch out my lifespan suffering.

  • Grass@sh.itjust.works
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    3 months ago

    I prefer my veggies in veggie form. Veggie meat seems like the nicotine patch of the food world to me.