This is a part two of a similar question asked here: https://slrpnk.net/post/24228904
Basically I am workshopping progressive sligans. I am a basic agitator and interact with a lot of people who lean progressive but aren’t politically engaged yet. Crowd-sourcing the revolution, I guess.
Depends in which group I am in.
It’s a grey area that requires many diverse opinions and backgrounds to discuss
Applied from a benevolent point of view it should always be a last resort if you’ve exhausted all your options to provide the needs of all
Star trek for example has shown it in its benevolent form where you see Spock saving the many over his own needs ultimately sacrificing himself
But it can lead into dangerous territory such as eugenics or discrimination when used in a malevolent or even unintentionally in a benevolent way like eugenics or discrimination for example
So the argument is well meaning but it can also lead to dangerous territory, its a double edged sword
The needs of the all should always be prioritised above all else
I think there are two more questions that need to be answered first, before being able to tell whether we should prioritize the many.
First question is what is the ultimate goal behind prioritizng the many? Happiness of the population? Infinite growth? To conquer the stars? Depending on what the goal is, there are occasions where minorities should be the focus if we want to approach the goal the fastest.
Example is moon landing: The amount of resources that was spent on “simply” building a rocket, space suits & equipment, and send a couple of humans over there was prioritizing the few. Despite a lot of people watching with curious eyes, it did not benefit the many’s needs much. There were several goals here: Being before the USSR, explore the unknown, satisfying shareholders, and more. By the many working hard to send the few, we approached all these goals faster than if we would allocate some of these resources towards the many’s needs, like health (prime days of smoking cigarettes).The second question is what timeframe are we talking? Is it long-term or short-term success we’re aiming for? Because in many cases, if we want long-term success fast, the many are those who should “suffer”.
Example is where the long-term goal is the glorious evolution of mankind: In one way, we downprioritize the few who are those born with defects, either by culling them or by ensuring they do not make offspring. In another way, we downprioritize the many who are on- or below-average intelligence/capabilities. But then we get the question of how we quantify the few/many; where do we draw the line? And as we get more smart/capable humans, the average constantly shifts - what is the concrete goal?Suffice to say that this is written without emotion, as that makes this discussion the soup it really is: Ethics, benevolence, discrimination, etc., as you mentioned.
I like the “needs of all” messaging, it combats polarization. Ultimately we are all human and should have basic rights: food, housing, healthcare, expression
A good case study is the billionaire family that owns in n out. They pay staff fairly well and sell their product at fairly reasonable prices. And still they are billionaires. The point that no rich person will ever understand is that we can provide for society handsomely and they will STILL BE FUCKING RICH. they will still have more money than everyone else, and we will still work at the jobs we have now. There is no need for poverty to exist except for the fact that some people think it’s awesome and perpetuate it. Misery and destitution can be cut by like 85% but no, the ownership class enjoys watching it.
But they could afford to buy beef from better sources. They could afford for their employees to have a career instead of a job. They could do that and still cost less than McDonalds. Yeah they’re alright compared to the big corporations but they are not improving the world - they are extracting profit from it.
Another great example is Quik Trip, a convenience store chain. I could go on and on, but if you know you know. Nowhere else holds a candle to QT and the employees make lifelong careers from working there. No shit.
Did early Y2K updates for them in 98, because they were ahead of the curve. Had touch screen POS terminals, in 1998. Even had in-house IT who wrote their custom software. Imagine that! Some of the clerks told me their monthly bonus was often more than their paycheck.
You won’t see someone being trained in the store. Hell no, that’s a six-week class, because they invest in their people.
Went to a couple of stores in East KC. They didn’t hire rent-a-cops, they paid actual cops to stand in the store. No fucking around.
Story goes that the owner said, “I got rich and it’s payback time.” Wildly successful outfit.
Anyway, I could have had a career with their IT but I let a chick I met online hang out with me at Harrah’s Casino and Hotel. She ripped me off via room service and QT was stuck with the bill. Didn’t even get laid. What a life.
Well that was a plot twist
I’ve had an interesting life.
The question implies a zero-sum model where one group’s needs are mutually exclusive with another group’s, which isn’t always the case. If we’re fighting over limited resources, it’d certainly make sense for greater people to have resources, than fewer. Otherwise, in a post-scarcity world, the question is how systems can be reworked so that everyone’s needs can be met.
The slogan might also require a bunch of annoying semantic arguments over what “needs” are. For instance, if we’re comparing the top 1% to the other 99%, can we really call the demands and expectations of the 1% “needs”? The rich aren’t going to die if they’re taxed a bit more.
It’s not necessarily zero-sum to say that occasionally people’s interests come into conflict.
I assets you mean “A greater number of people”?
Yes. We’ve seen governments prove that they can provide for thir citizens. It just means billionaires becoming multimillionaires. They would still be able to buy anything they would ever want for themselves. All that is required is for the hoarders to give up some of their stuff. And as we know, hoarders need all that stuff. Their life is over unless they have all of their stuff!
The problem is that they can easily turn their “stuff” into cold hard cash.
Their life is over unless they have all of their stuff!
I’m ok with these peoples lives ending.
Hoarders gonna hoard.
Yeah, you get it. I aim to trivialize the oligarchy. The idea that we can make the world better at nearly zero cost. The only cost is the therapy bills of the former billionaires, as they work through their butthurt at being reduced to mere opulence.
Alligator Alcatraz took 8 days to build 30,000 beds. Even slacking on human comforts, they prove that they can do it. It’s really become embarrassing recently.
It’s not merely lacking amenities, it’s already falling apart. I’d far rather be in a regular prison than that hellhole. For that matter, I’d gladly be homeless first.
They built it so fast, I’m still not sure what these new buzzwords even mean. I’ve seen these terms for the past 7 days. Everyone but me seems to know them.
Before 7 days ago? Never heard that term before.
They literally built a concentration camp in Florida. The new Holocaust is real now.
…ok, now, you say literally. Do you literally mean literally? As in we’re shipping people there with the intention of killing them?
Because that’s both shocking, but also believable. There is no floor for this administration.
Soooooo…I don’t WANT to believe the government is using official government resources to kill people. But at the same time, we literally have had two government officials do nazi salutes on tv this year.
A maga death camp would be shocking, but not surprising. As sad as that would be to say.
It’s a nice buzzword for Vulcans to justify some horrible shit using logic, but if you go deeper than a StarTrekism buzzword, then it doesn’t really make much sense.
For example, Trans rights. Trans need to be safe. RWNJ’s need to feel safe, and out number them. Who wins?
in the real world, everybody wins when Trans people’s rights are protected and everybody- especially the most vulnerable- are kept safe. Including the RWNJ’s.
That example’s a good one for a anotger reason: right wingers do need to feel safe, but that doesn’t mean that anything needs to be done about trans people. RW perceptions of what needs to be done are wrong, because they are based on myths and misunderstandings about the risks transness. Or another way to say it: the need for safety is real, solutions proposed by rightwingers are not appropriate, even aside from the issue of trans rights, because they won’t solve need for safety - hiding the bogeyman under a rug or behind criminalisation won’t make it go away, and will increase misunderstanding.
to be honest, at this point, I’m pretty sure the RWNJ’s don’t actually want to feel safe.
But yeah, the appropriate solution is to keep everybody safe, and educate the RWNJ’s. Though, if you were able to actually convince them of the truth, they’d probably run off to disenfranchise the next group.
Maybe… My understanding (which is admittedly based on not much hard evidence) is that right wingism is more of a symptom than a cause, and that there are basically two or three drivers:
- insecurity, particularly financial (e.g. shows up as “they’re taking our jobs”, or "fucking dole bludgers). I think greed is sometimes an excessive response to this.
- trauma (e.g. I was treated terribly, and so I’m gonna treat the world terribly in turn).
- power-hunger. (which is probably often a reaction to the other two, a need to control your world).
The insane far-right that are in power in the US, and the people surrounding them are most of the third category… I don’t think much of the base is in that category. But that group knows the triggers for people in the first two categories, and abuses the fuck out of them…
So yeah… I guess you’re right in that “convincing them of the truth” of any single issue isn’t going to solve anything. But I think aiming to solve those underlying insecurity and trauma issues might… Not that I have any quick-fix solutions…
which, yeah, I don’t disagree with that. The problem is that they’re actively working against their own interests. Blatantly so. They don’t want to take programs that would give them financial security (or all the other forms of security that would give, like stable housing, access to good and healthy food, a good education, etc.).
Some of it is that they’re primed to do that. But a lot of it is, they’re lashing out. They don’t want to feel safe, as an example, because then that removes their excuse for lashing out at people they want to harass and torture.
Basically this:
Anyone else screaming “oh god! don’t twist! don’t twist!” ?
Trans need to be safe. RWNJ’s need to feel safe
Being safe outweighs feeling safe, so this whole analogy is void.
Being safe outweighs feeling safe, so this whole analogy is void.
WOW… you managed to get my point and still miss it. Impressive.
What sort of whims are we talking here? The way you word this it answers itself. The needs of everyone are equal, rights apply to all. If we can’t protect “the few” we are all at risk.
But if you mean whims like every time I go to the beach someone doesn’t have food for a week, no, obviously I wouldn’t go to the beach until that was fixed.
