Both the president and his reelection campaign are going after his coup-attempting predecessor even before the first GOP primary ballots are cast.
A full year out from the 2024 presidential election and nearly two months before Republicans cast their first primary ballots, President Joe Biden and his campaign are assuming that Donald Trump will be his opponent and have already started reminding voters why they threw him out of office in the first place.
Biden personally has stepped up criticism of his coup-attempting predecessor and is framing the likely rematch as one that will determine the survival of American democracy.
“The same man who said we should terminate the rules and regulations and articles of the Constitution — these are things he said — is now running on a plan to end democracy as we know it,” he said last week at a fundraiser in Chicago.
“This next election is different. It’s more important. There’s more at stake. And we all know why: Because our very democracy is at stake,” he told a San Francisco audience on Wednesday.
I voted for Biden because I wanted to stop fascism and world war, now Israel is doing genocide and bombing its neighbors with Biden’s tacit support.
Biden is president of the US, not the world. He has little more ability to stop the latest flare up of that decades long conflict than does Trudeau or any other nation’s leader.
What do you expect him to do about it that he isn’t already doing?
e: more to the point, what do you think Trump would do that would have any real effect?
Israel is wholly dependent on the US to be able to act with impunity in the region.
If Biden said “no ceasefire, no warships” and threatened to pull out of the Gulf and not defend Israel you bet your ass Israel would fall in line.
Hard disagree.
If it were that easy, why hasn’t the US put this to bed over the many decades this situation has been going on in that region?
If your solution can be stated in one sentence, I promise it’s too myopic to work. The situation there is massively complex, and every easy solution has been tried at least once.
The US hasn’t put this to bed because it needs Israel to maintain its global empire, so Israel is allowed to do whatever it wants as long as it serves US interests. Israel is the US’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east. Israel is a keystone of power projection and regional influence. Israel is the laboratory for surveillance tech, drone tech, boarder tech, occupation tech, and policing tech. Israel is America’s most precious and most important ally, probably in the entire world. As Biden said, if Israel didn’t exist the US would have to make it.
Biden supports the US empire so he isn’t going to cut Israel off, same as every single president before him.
But that doesn’t mean I’m wrong, and honestly, just proves that the US empire needs to be dismantled.
Suuuure, buddy. Because the alternative would be SO much better. Have you forgotten the many, many times Trump explicity showed support for Netanhayu?
Have you forgotten how much Democrats hate Trump?
Under Biden, Democrats are all lining up to support Israel’s genocide in Gaza. Even Bernie refuses to endorse a ceasefire.
Under Trump that would be drastically different. I bet more than half of Democrats would have the courage to condemn Israel.
Under Trump that would be drastically different
Care to explain further? Because his entire term during presidency says otherwise.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/100-times-president-trump-supported-israel/
And if you want further counterexamples, I can pull up all the times Republicans sided with Russia as they waged war on Ukraine.
Care to explain further? Because his entire term during presidency says otherwise.
Do you remember when Democrats opposed Trump moving the embassy to Jerusalem?
I’m not saying Trump wouldn’t support Israel. He absolutely would! But Democrats would react to this by becoming less supportive of Israel.
At the very least politicians like Bernie would have the courage to call for a ceasefire.
I remember when Trump became president and suddenly Republicans were strongly in support of bombing Syria but Democrat opinion stayed roughly where it was. So, basically your entire premise is flawed.
Maybe. Either way, I will not vote for genocide.
In a two-party system, not voting is a vote for the eventual winner. So you’re still voting for genocide.
But this time it’ll be with Trump, and so without calls for a ‘humanitarian pause’ (which is a call for a ceasefire in terms that save face for Bibi’s government, which has clearly signaled that it will not consider a ceasefire). Instead, rather, it’d probably be accompanied by horrendously racist rhetoric encouraging the rise in domestic Islamophobic attacks. I wouldn’t be surprised if US jets were running sorties on Palestinian hospitals if this happened under a Trump presidency.
“It’ll be better under Trump!”
… I’m seriously starting to think some of these lemmy.ml and hexbear “communist” are MAGAts cosplaying Marxists.
I didn’t say it would be better, I said Democrats would have better political positions.
Do you think Bernie would refuse to endorse a ceasefire under Trump?
Do you think Bernie would refuse to endorse a ceasefire under Trump?
Yes, probably. Considering that it comes on the heels of an attack that killed a thousand Israeli civilians, and Bibi has made it clear that a ceasefire is not going to happen?
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable - the art of the second best.”
A failure of imagination.
They don’t actually want Trump behind bars.
They want to hang a possible second Trump Presidency over us like the sword of Damocles.
This way every future election is “the most important election in US history.”
This way they can always do bare minimum and still be “better” than the Republicans offering hate and authoritarianism.
Also this way, when they lose, they can blame us for not voting harder. It’s a really good propaganda trick.
If you don’t vote for Biden and he loses, you’re in part to blame, aren’t you?
No, Biden is to blame for ignoring the extremely loud demands from the Dem base for a ceasefire. No ceasefire, no votes.
Also? This is why liberals will support Trump when he restarts the Muslim bans. “They let Trump win! It’ll serve them right.” 🙄
I’m pretty sure whoever loses an election can rightfully blame the people who didn’t vote for them. That’s sort of how elections work.
I will rightfully blame Biden for being a bad candidate and blame the Democratic Party for forcing Biden down our throats and making voters choose between Trump and Biden. That’s also how elections work.
Okay? But that still means that he can’t rightfully blame you for not voting for him if he loses. Despite what you said.
Would it be any different if it was any other president? Put differently, is it Biden supporting genocide, or America?
Most Americans support a ceasefire, so it’s not really “America” either. It’s the ruling class.
But Biden has a lot of power all on his own. We can’t ignore that.
And we must hold Biden responsible.
But are you suggesting that Trump would approach Israel any differently? The US response is deeply rooted in morally evil international interests, I don’t think any president could respond much differently without severe internal consequences to themselves. It would be the right thing to do, though it would be political suicide thanks to said evil interests.
And we must hold Biden responsible.
I think in place of this, you mean Biden should be held accountable, but you have no intention or expectation of it actually happening. Reelection is definitely the opposite of that. And like Bush transitioning to Obama, I doubt you’ll be calling for any retroactive accountability once Biden has left office after reelection.
Then your assumptions are incorrect.
I would prefer not to re-elect Biden. I however am not in control of the Democratic Party, and so the best I can do is vote in elections leading up to the national election. When the day comes next year for a national election, it will be Biden VS. Whomever the republicans pick. Those are my two choices, whether I like it or not.
I am already politically active in demanding Biden be held accountable. I am still active in demanding Bush be held accountable for war crimes. I will still remain active in the future to ensure Biden answers for them as well.
As a law abiding citizen, I am protesting and voting. So do you suggest I commit violence instead? That is the only next step, seeing as I am not in control of who the Democrat party elects.
that sounds about what my assumptions were. A desire for accountability, yet you’ll be voting for him and he won’t be facing any sort of accountability.
I’m trying to conduct some conversation here. You haven’t responded to my inquires and fail to show any motivation beyond disparaging the US. If you’d like to actually care and be a part of the solution, I’ll be waiting over here.
The barest minimum for holding a politician accountable is not reelecting them.
History suggests the exact opposite.
Consider healthcare and Obamacare. What happened when people unhappy with Obamacare not going far enough didn’t vote in 2010? The US swung rightward and the far right grew in power. The only thing that happened with healthcare was the constant Republican attempts to repeal it, and they were almost successful. We almost saw regression on the issue, not improvement.
Think about this another way – if reelection is a vindication to the politics and means their voters see no need to hold them accountable, what happens if a Republican wins? They’ll see their positions as justified and be emboldened. The country will seem to favor conservatism, so Democrats will go the opposite direction and become more moderate. A Republican victory isn’t seen as Democrats needing to be more left and a Democrat victory isn’t seen as Republicans being to be more right. It’s the complete opposite.
The problem is that you’re forgetting this is a zero sum game. If you hold the Democrat accountable, you let the Republican slide. If you hold the Republican accountable, you let the Democrat slide. If you want to hold both accountable and just not vote, you’re letting the candidate at an advantage slide and holding the underdog accountable. There’s no good option. If you want to actually hold both of them accountable, you have to vote FOR the one that’s closer the direction you want to go, and then use your vote as leverage. Politicians listen a lot more to their voters than go non voters. Young people are putting real pressure on Biden because they previously voted for him.
I’m suggesting that the machine operates the same no matter who pulls its levers, for exactly the reasons you listed.
That said? I don’t think as many Democrats would be reluctant to endorse a ceasefire under Trump. That matters.
So exactly one issue is the breaking point for you? All the fascism and Nazism that Trump spouts is tolerable?
Genocide is the breaking point for me. I voted for Biden to stop fascism and I got a genocide. I will not vote for genocide again.
Why aren’t you mad at Biden for ruining his own election chances by supporting genocide? Why attack us for opposing genocide?
So now that Biden admin brokered a ceasefire and hostage exchange in the Palestine Israel conflict, is he still genocidal or?
That’s not a ceasefire, it’s a 5 day pause. The genocide starts back up next week.
But this is a good start! This was exactly my intent of threatening to withhold my vote and why it’s important to apply pressure to Biden - he knows he needs us to get reelected and so he’s working to make sure we have a reason to vote for him again.
Keep the pressure up until there’s a ceasefire. No ceasefire, no votes. I just want this one thing. He’s let me down over and over on so many different issues, but if he can give us this one fucking thing I will vote for him. Is that so wrong?
This genocide has been going on for decades. If it wasn’t a breaking point in '20, why is it a breaking point now?
For fuck’s sake. Swear to fucking god, I can’t tell the difference between the tankies who are disingenuously using this incident in the ongoing genocide to push a “TRUMP NOT SO BAD” narrative, and those who, like most Americans, learned about the existence one of the biggest issues in international politics just last fucking month.
This is worse than it’s ever been in my entire life, surely you realize that?
It’s more prominent. It’s more visible. It catches the attention of those who don’t usually pay attention to international politics. But I don’t know why you weren’t concerned when they were shooting up hospitals full of wounded and shelling children with naval artillery, but are now that it’s proper flashy.
It was genocide. It has been genocide. It will likely continue to be genocide once the current operation finishes. And there’s zero chance that it will stop as long as Bibi’s government is in power.
It doesn’t though. I disagree with Biden but he’s not actively trying to take away my rights. Its a lesser of two evils situation, and acting like its not is either naive or malicious.
I want ranked choice voting so it isnt always this lesser of two evils bullshit, but that’s not the reality.
If you don’t vote biden, that’s your choice, but that isn’t some brave silent protest. That’s giving up. What are you doing to change things? Right now. I voted in my local elections just recently. We lost every vote, but I did it anyways. I’ll be voting in any primaries I can, and for any election I’m able. When I’m financially able I’ll be donating to candidates who I personally support.
Unless you want a full on revolution, work around the bullshit system we have to make it better. Realistically, I don’t think there is the public will for a real revolution.
This is harsh and I mean it to be. If you don’t vote you are doing nothing. If you aren’t campaigning or helping somebody else do so, you’re doing nothing. If you are simply whining on the Internet about how both candidates are shit and you give up, then you’ve given up. Don’t pull this “enlightened” both sides are equally shit idiocy. Its simply not true.
If you honestly think that the only way to change is revolution, then plan one. Nobody wants to hear you shout to the void that you won’t be participating in the bare minimum of directing a democracy/republic.
It doesn’t though. I disagree with Biden but he’s not actively trying to take away my rights.
You’re fine with Biden supporting a genocide in Gaza as long as it doesn’t personally effect you, is that right?
Nobody wants to hear you shout to the void that you won’t be participating in the bare minimum of directing a democracy/republic.
This is an internet comment section. We’re all shouting to the void, nothing anyone says here matters. This is all just for fun.
What’s your hexbear username?
Why would I bother?
I never said I supported the shit in Gaza. I don’t. I want a ceasefire. I want a free and independent Palestine. What, realistically, do you want me to do to make that happen? Voting for Trump won’t help. Voting third party won’t help. Not voting won’t help. Enlighten me.
Or is this more “if you haven’t given up too you must be complicit” bullshit? What have you done? I’ll continue to do what I can to make a positive change, despite the lack of power I personally have. I’d encourage you to do the same, to pick up whatever hypothetical twig you have laying around and swing it, rather than putting down others for doing what they can, in the fucked up situation we are in. Citizens have political power as a collective, not individuals, and if you back out of that collective you’re just giving up what power you do have.
If you vote for Biden you are voting for genocide. Fact.
Our votes are our only leverage over Biden. If the Biden team cares at all about winning reelection then Biden will reconsider his unlimited support for Israel, and if he does I will 100% vote for him. Until then? No ceasefire, no votes.
Also I haven’t given up? Hell, I’m still voting downticket for Democrats! But I will not vote for genocide. That’s my red line. I can not compromise myself that far, I’d literally rather die (and because I’m a trans commie, Trump might actually fucking kill me so yeah)
Trump will be just as bad, if not worse. He regularly praises dictators for their human rights abuses and wants to reimplement a travel ban from many middle eastern countries, and has stated he doesn’t want any refugees to come from those areas, I believe specifically including Gaza.
I understand the decision you’ve made, but I disagree. I still feel that biden v trump means I vote biden, because trump is both worse for the US, and worse for the people suffering in Palestine. I hope Biden changes his stance and actually calls for a ceasefire, and I will continue to let my representatives know this.
You do what you gotta do, but I’ll never support Trump, through direct action, or inaction.
I’m a little more torn over this than others… On one hand, this is the appropriate messaging to force Democrats to actually represent the interests of their electorate, the thing they’re specifically elected to do. The phone lines of these politicians should be going off 24 hours a day with callers telling them they will never even consider voting for them again unless they show an appropriate level of change, remorse, and action to stop this. Biden should be receiving that 10x over. Additionally, there are groups of people I will never criticize for refusing to vote - should the white lefty criticize the Muslim for refusing to vote for a leader that does not value the lives of Muslims? Should they criticize the Jew for refusing to vote for a leader who commits genocide in their name?
…and on the other hand, as a queer person who follows politics, I still feel any public refusal to vote Biden on my part must be a bluff. There’s too much at stake for me to justify going through with it privately… there’s my trans life, yes, but then there’s also the lives of my trans and generally queer friends, the freedoms of the women in my life, the lives and freedoms of those groups on the national scale, the ability for anyone to vote at all down the line - privately refusing to vote blue for the presidency would not feel like solidarity (partly because it would make the situation I’m refusing to vote over worse, and also potentially make life in the US for Jews and Muslims worse, as Republicans and Trump specifically have enacted things like explicit travel bans before). It would not feel like praxis to virtue signal my refusal to be complicit in one genocide only to be complicit in the all-to-possible ellimination of democracy at home and a subsequent net increase in genocide and funding for it around the world. Voting for Genocide Joe is not cool or satisfying or even right - it’s just the least bad… and honestly for what its worth, the least bad has never looked worse in my life.
It doesn’t the same, that’s a fallacy spread by short-sighted people who only ever want immediate fixes for complicated problems. There’s definitely a lot of similarities in fiscal policy, but on social policy they couldn’t be further apart.
Just because neither fit your perfect ideal doesn’t mean they’re exactly the same and it doesn’t matter who you vote for.
Opposing genocide isn’t idealism! What the fuck?
I disagree with Biden on a ton of issues! I hated it when he broke the railroad strike, I hated it when he let the likes of Manchin whittle down all of his social agenda, I hated it when he let Texas put razor wire in the Rio, but I can compromise. I get it, he’s not a leftist and he’s not willing to rock the boat and he’s trying to appeal to conservative swing voters. But this is the one issue I just can’t.
Think Trump would have had a better response?
No. Lose/lose situation no matter who wins.
But! Do you think Democrats would support Israel’s genocide if Trump was president? I doubt it.
But! Do you think Democrats would support Israel’s genocide if Trump was president? I doubt it.
What the fuck do you think the Dems have been doing since the 80s? Through every Republican presidency?
I think Dems opposed Trump moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
Yes, and so were the GOP before Trump. That’s not a “Well, the Dems decided to oppose the move because it was a Republican president!” moment, it’s a “The Dems are the conservative party and the GOP is the fascist party” moment.
That’s why the best move is for Democrats to control the House and Senate, and that’s why I’m voting down ticket for Democrats.
I don’t care about why Democrats oppose Trump, I just know that they will. Or do you think that Bernie Sanders would refuse to call for a ceasefire if Trump was President, like what he’s doing right now under Biden?
I don’t care about why Democrats oppose Trump, I just know that they will.
“This is the history of the matter. That’s literally not how it works, and you’re confusing the opposition of one policy with some idea of complete contrarianism that flies in the face of how the Democratic Party has operated, not only over the past 30 years in general, but also under Trump in particular.”
“I don’t know WHY they’ll do it, but they WILL”
Okay, buddy, have fun with that.
Don’t forget that Democrats for the most part have to listen to their voters or risk their jobs. Republicans don’t have to listen to anyone because Republican voters would literally vote for Hitler if he had an R next to his name. There’s been a slow trickle of headlines about Biden changing his tune on Israel as slow as a geriatric can go because of the immense outrage.
