While I completely agree with everything you have written, I don’t have a gun, neither does anyone I know, neither does any organization I know. Guns are basically impossible to get where I am.
I understand that violence is an inevitability, what am I to do about it with no weapons and no source?
(This is not an invitation to fedpost lol)
I’m also curious about your opinion of my comment elsewhere in this thread, I’ll repost it here:
I have been weighing reading this book but I am apprehensive that it is just going to be unrelentingly depressing with no further takeaway than “here is all the times the capitalist system won, and here are how many it killed”
You’re an individual. It’s not the job of the individual to arm themselves.
The issue is not getting arms, those can be acquired by revolutionary organisations via smuggling and international comrades when the moment arrives. The issue is ensuring that people are mentally prepared to take up arms instead of rolling over for the fascist death squads. The demsoc method results in people being mentally unprepared and unwilling to take up arms. They roll over and die when the fascist death squads start their work. The revolutionary method prepares people to fight because they have always known that fighting is inevitable.
You say there is no source for weapons. What you really mean is “weapons are illegal”, which is correct but is a mentality flaw caused by democratic socialist ideology. The weapons can be brought in, illegally, via international smuggling and comrades. Tens of thousands of people travelled to Spain to participate in the revolution, tens of thousands travelled to Rojava to participate in their revolution (no matter how people feel about what happened in Syria). If revolutionary movements are significant and viable comrades will work to resolve these sourcing issues. The issue is not in where to get weapons, the issue is in making sure you and others are prepared and mentally willing to hold them when the time comes.
Really good post, but with one caveat, that it’s critical to begin physical preparations before there are fascist death squads in the streets. This is not an individual issue but something that your group/formation should be working on internally. I agree though that the mental and political issue is more important and that where there is a will, folks can find a way to acquire necessary armaments (and not through Internet forums!).
Again I agree with you 100%. But I don’t have it in me to assign blame to those who don’t have it in them to kill, and who would rather be killed than live with having killed.
I also think there are more long term benefits to the kind of organizing that is happening today around demsoc politicians, even if a demsoc elected is not a viable end goal.
Again I agree with you 100%. But I don’t have it in me to assign blame to those who don’t have it in them to kill, and who would rather be killed than live with having killed.
I’m not interested in assigning blame, but if someone would literally rather be tortured to death than shoot an active pogromist because of potential guilt over the death of the pogromist, we don’t necessarily need to treat that as an essential element of their nature, and I would argue that such a totalizing aversion to defending yourself and your whole community is probably the less healthy attitude.
I just don’t think the organization you’re describing as superior arrives from nowhere, but from laborious organizing, education, and radicalization over time. And people who come to those movements are largely aligned on political objectives. Personally I wouldn’t be where I am today politically without my previous electoral campaign work, even though I now see electoralism as the slightest brake on immiseration at best, and a total waste of time at worst. It took elections for me to see the charade of electoralism. (Although a plurality of people don’t vote, so I guess seeing that doesn’t necessarily align with a political ideology.)
I’m curious, what do you see as the alternate organizing centerpiece, aside from electoral campaigns and founding a political party, that can realistically pull in a critical mass of regular people? Or do you see the objective as totally different? How does the organization you describe arise?
Edit: you’re welcome to point me to reading as well
As a seemingly nascent group in the heart of capitalist empire, a place where the term socialist had (and still mostly has) no meaning, SocDem electoralism can do exactly what you described: bring people towards the left, and some continue on by reading, doing work, and analyzing failure.
The danger is when those same SocDem groups then face a disciplined and more correct left formation. They reflexively fight against it and proclaim as loud as they can that only their way works and wins, just go knock more doors and get more people elected. They say, “don’t listen to the tankies”. Their critics must be wrong for their electoral rot to be considered prime.
You will find that among the SocDems, and the higher in their ranks you search, are some of those most dishonest people you will ever meet. This may be surprising, as they seem to agree with you 90% of the time (30% of that is just words to them). But the moment you fall out of line and challenge them from the left, actually challenge their proximity to power or careers (or sometimes just their egos), and you will suddenly feel like you just criticized Mr. President (D) in a group of Dem party operatives. Meal ticket under threat, you are now every epithet they can think of and tokenize themselves to throw at you.
Fun examples:
“Your” suggestion of being antizionist is a threat to growing the organization and we will use dishonesty and parliamentary procedure to silence you and not allow the issue to be decided.
Defunding of the police is no longer relevant and when we are in charge we will want them.
We can’t speak out against this Democrat Rep warmonger and provider of genocidal arms because we might need them to say nice things about us in the future.
Imperialist weapons contractors are workers, too. Where is your “just transition” (theirs is just not thinking about this at all)?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It’s interesting and while I have encountered what you describe, I also encounter people who are like, “I am a committed Marxist-Leninist-Maoist and I am ready for the shoe to drop for my activity here.” I guess I just mentally filter the former and appreciate when I encounter the latter lol
As always our job is to just plain out-organize them. It actually isn’t that hard to do because they are constantly leaving whole demographics out to dry.
I kinda disagree… “They” are organized enough to have a variety of heavily armed and armored military and paramilitary apparatuses, chains of command, training, ammunition, lines of recruitment, drones, facial recognition technology, unfettered surveillance access to all my devices…
I am organized enough to have three or four nerds to make and hand out lentils with on the weekends, and even that activity sometimes feels like it puts a target on my back
That is to say, I don’t really think it’s fair to point to those who are going to be murdered by the state and say, “well, if they had just followed my idea”…
“You will only survive with revolutionary organization and fervor” feels a bit like, “don’t siege Leningrad, just take it.” Like, organization does not exist, but fascist death squads already do and are in my community and killing us. Any day now the international brigade will swoop in with weapons and training I guess
Im not even saying this to argue for socdems or against whatever you would call your alternative, I’m just saying that where I live socdem elections are just about the only topic that pulls anyone to the left of Adolf Hitler, and every time I come to this forum it’s like just have a revolutionary org that is capable of out organizing the US terror apparatus. Like, I’ve thought of that, people around the world have thought of that, thinking it doesn’t make it so, in fact talking about thinking it gets you killed by said terror apparatus. I don’t think that’s the fault of the thinkers
Anyone who believes socdem politicians are the one and only avenue to salvation is a moron, many people I meet in that milieu are not that stupid, everyone I meet outside that milieu is Wehrmacht
I’m just very frustrated, sorry to dump it all on you in this reply
(I recognize I am kinda blending my response to your messages and awoo’s at once)
The fact is that change will not happen without organized violence. The most elementary formation in which organized violence can be wielded is the paramilitary. Anything else is not build on anything. What would happen if the NYPD simply shoot Mamdani in the head? Mamdani doesn’t have a paramilitary to protect him nor conduct reprisal hits on members of the NYPD. Should Mamdani’s continued existence incur a higher political cost than getting rid of him by any means necessary, he will simply be liquidated, perhaps in a dramatic fashion to make an example out of him.
Of course, a paramilitary is just an ever-diminishing group of people with guns if they don’t have support from the local community that they can recruit fallen members from. Usually, there would need to be a political apparatus that onboard, vet, and ideologically train potential recruits so you don’t just hand a loose cannon an assault rifle. It’s also there so the paramilitary doesn’t devolve into a bunch of marauders with some charismatic warlord leading the pack. The political apparatus can be divided between mass orgs that target normal people with looser org discipline and a party where there’s an strict expectation of party discipline and ideological agreement over the party programme among cadre.
Consequently, counterinsurgency is deployed by the state to make sure that these elements never coalesce together. Armed militant groups are manipulated to be nothing more than gangsters warring against one another instead of united against the state. Mass orgs are manipulated to be tailist and not push back against the reactionary tendencies of the masses. Political parties are manipulated to be out of touch with the masses and allergic towards violence.
Democratic socialists as they exist in the West are that last sentence. They tend to act like activists who do not see a place for violence, especially organized violence. At best, you will have a rowdy protest where stuff gets thrown at cops. But if you read police counterinsurgency manuals, they absolutely treat even the most benign protest as an insurgency action. Those nonviolence protests are just seen as an insurgency action where the insurgents are too stupid and cowardly to fight back. That is how cops see nonviolent protests.
But if you read police counterinsurgency manuals, they absolutely treat even the most benign protest as an insurgency action. Those nonviolence protests are just seen as an insurgency action where the insurgents are too stupid and cowardly to fight back. That is how cops see nonviolent protests.
While I completely agree with everything you have written, I don’t have a gun, neither does anyone I know, neither does any organization I know. Guns are basically impossible to get where I am.
I understand that violence is an inevitability, what am I to do about it with no weapons and no source?
(This is not an invitation to fedpost lol)
I’m also curious about your opinion of my comment elsewhere in this thread, I’ll repost it here:
I have been weighing reading this book but I am apprehensive that it is just going to be unrelentingly depressing with no further takeaway than “here is all the times the capitalist system won, and here are how many it killed”
Am I off base?
You’re an individual. It’s not the job of the individual to arm themselves.
The issue is not getting arms, those can be acquired by revolutionary organisations via smuggling and international comrades when the moment arrives. The issue is ensuring that people are mentally prepared to take up arms instead of rolling over for the fascist death squads. The demsoc method results in people being mentally unprepared and unwilling to take up arms. They roll over and die when the fascist death squads start their work. The revolutionary method prepares people to fight because they have always known that fighting is inevitable.
You say there is no source for weapons. What you really mean is “weapons are illegal”, which is correct but is a mentality flaw caused by democratic socialist ideology. The weapons can be brought in, illegally, via international smuggling and comrades. Tens of thousands of people travelled to Spain to participate in the revolution, tens of thousands travelled to Rojava to participate in their revolution (no matter how people feel about what happened in Syria). If revolutionary movements are significant and viable comrades will work to resolve these sourcing issues. The issue is not in where to get weapons, the issue is in making sure you and others are prepared and mentally willing to hold them when the time comes.
Really good post, but with one caveat, that it’s critical to begin physical preparations before there are fascist death squads in the streets. This is not an individual issue but something that your group/formation should be working on internally. I agree though that the mental and political issue is more important and that where there is a will, folks can find a way to acquire necessary armaments (and not through Internet forums!).
Again I agree with you 100%. But I don’t have it in me to assign blame to those who don’t have it in them to kill, and who would rather be killed than live with having killed.
I also think there are more long term benefits to the kind of organizing that is happening today around demsoc politicians, even if a demsoc elected is not a viable end goal.
I’m not interested in assigning blame, but if someone would literally rather be tortured to death than shoot an active pogromist because of potential guilt over the death of the pogromist, we don’t necessarily need to treat that as an essential element of their nature, and I would argue that such a totalizing aversion to defending yourself and your whole community is probably the less healthy attitude.
Longterm benefits like what? When the demsocs start succeeding, everyone gets killed and the movement is reset.
I just don’t think the organization you’re describing as superior arrives from nowhere, but from laborious organizing, education, and radicalization over time. And people who come to those movements are largely aligned on political objectives. Personally I wouldn’t be where I am today politically without my previous electoral campaign work, even though I now see electoralism as the slightest brake on immiseration at best, and a total waste of time at worst. It took elections for me to see the charade of electoralism. (Although a plurality of people don’t vote, so I guess seeing that doesn’t necessarily align with a political ideology.)
I’m curious, what do you see as the alternate organizing centerpiece, aside from electoral campaigns and founding a political party, that can realistically pull in a critical mass of regular people? Or do you see the objective as totally different? How does the organization you describe arise?
Edit: you’re welcome to point me to reading as well
As a seemingly nascent group in the heart of capitalist empire, a place where the term socialist had (and still mostly has) no meaning, SocDem electoralism can do exactly what you described: bring people towards the left, and some continue on by reading, doing work, and analyzing failure.
The danger is when those same SocDem groups then face a disciplined and more correct left formation. They reflexively fight against it and proclaim as loud as they can that only their way works and wins, just go knock more doors and get more people elected. They say, “don’t listen to the tankies”. Their critics must be wrong for their electoral rot to be considered prime.
You will find that among the SocDems, and the higher in their ranks you search, are some of those most dishonest people you will ever meet. This may be surprising, as they seem to agree with you 90% of the time (30% of that is just words to them). But the moment you fall out of line and challenge them from the left, actually challenge their proximity to power or careers (or sometimes just their egos), and you will suddenly feel like you just criticized Mr. President (D) in a group of Dem party operatives. Meal ticket under threat, you are now every epithet they can think of and tokenize themselves to throw at you.
Fun examples:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It’s interesting and while I have encountered what you describe, I also encounter people who are like, “I am a committed Marxist-Leninist-Maoist and I am ready for the shoe to drop for my activity here.” I guess I just mentally filter the former and appreciate when I encounter the latter lol
Probably a healthy attitude lol.
As always our job is to just plain out-organize them. It actually isn’t that hard to do because they are constantly leaving whole demographics out to dry.
I kinda disagree… “They” are organized enough to have a variety of heavily armed and armored military and paramilitary apparatuses, chains of command, training, ammunition, lines of recruitment, drones, facial recognition technology, unfettered surveillance access to all my devices…
I am organized enough to have three or four nerds to make and hand out lentils with on the weekends, and even that activity sometimes feels like it puts a target on my back
That is to say, I don’t really think it’s fair to point to those who are going to be murdered by the state and say, “well, if they had just followed my idea”…
“You will only survive with revolutionary organization and fervor” feels a bit like, “don’t siege Leningrad, just take it.” Like, organization does not exist, but fascist death squads already do and are in my community and killing us. Any day now the international brigade will swoop in with weapons and training I guess
Im not even saying this to argue for socdems or against whatever you would call your alternative, I’m just saying that where I live socdem elections are just about the only topic that pulls anyone to the left of Adolf Hitler, and every time I come to this forum it’s like
just have a revolutionary org that is capable of out organizing the US terror apparatus. Like, I’ve thought of that, people around the world have thought of that, thinking it doesn’t make it so, in fact talking about thinking it gets you killed by said terror apparatus. I don’t think that’s the fault of the thinkers
Anyone who believes socdem politicians are the one and only avenue to salvation is a moron, many people I meet in that milieu are not that stupid, everyone I meet outside that milieu is Wehrmacht
I’m just very frustrated, sorry to dump it all on you in this reply
(I recognize I am kinda blending my response to your messages and awoo’s at once)
The fact is that change will not happen without organized violence. The most elementary formation in which organized violence can be wielded is the paramilitary. Anything else is not build on anything. What would happen if the NYPD simply shoot Mamdani in the head? Mamdani doesn’t have a paramilitary to protect him nor conduct reprisal hits on members of the NYPD. Should Mamdani’s continued existence incur a higher political cost than getting rid of him by any means necessary, he will simply be liquidated, perhaps in a dramatic fashion to make an example out of him.
Of course, a paramilitary is just an ever-diminishing group of people with guns if they don’t have support from the local community that they can recruit fallen members from. Usually, there would need to be a political apparatus that onboard, vet, and ideologically train potential recruits so you don’t just hand a loose cannon an assault rifle. It’s also there so the paramilitary doesn’t devolve into a bunch of marauders with some charismatic warlord leading the pack. The political apparatus can be divided between mass orgs that target normal people with looser org discipline and a party where there’s an strict expectation of party discipline and ideological agreement over the party programme among cadre.
Consequently, counterinsurgency is deployed by the state to make sure that these elements never coalesce together. Armed militant groups are manipulated to be nothing more than gangsters warring against one another instead of united against the state. Mass orgs are manipulated to be tailist and not push back against the reactionary tendencies of the masses. Political parties are manipulated to be out of touch with the masses and allergic towards violence.
Democratic socialists as they exist in the West are that last sentence. They tend to act like activists who do not see a place for violence, especially organized violence. At best, you will have a rowdy protest where stuff gets thrown at cops. But if you read police counterinsurgency manuals, they absolutely treat even the most benign protest as an insurgency action. Those nonviolence protests are just seen as an insurgency action where the insurgents are too stupid and cowardly to fight back. That is how cops see nonviolent protests.
This is funny and insightful