I kinda disagree… “They” are organized enough to have a variety of heavily armed and armored military and paramilitary apparatuses, chains of command, training, ammunition, lines of recruitment, drones, facial recognition technology, unfettered surveillance access to all my devices…
I am organized enough to have three or four nerds to make and hand out lentils with on the weekends, and even that activity sometimes feels like it puts a target on my back
That is to say, I don’t really think it’s fair to point to those who are going to be murdered by the state and say, “well, if they had just followed my idea”…
“You will only survive with revolutionary organization and fervor” feels a bit like, “don’t siege Leningrad, just take it.” Like, organization does not exist, but fascist death squads already do and are in my community and killing us. Any day now the international brigade will swoop in with weapons and training I guess
Im not even saying this to argue for socdems or against whatever you would call your alternative, I’m just saying that where I live socdem elections are just about the only topic that pulls anyone to the left of Adolf Hitler, and every time I come to this forum it’s like just have a revolutionary org that is capable of out organizing the US terror apparatus. Like, I’ve thought of that, people around the world have thought of that, thinking it doesn’t make it so, in fact talking about thinking it gets you killed by said terror apparatus. I don’t think that’s the fault of the thinkers
Anyone who believes socdem politicians are the one and only avenue to salvation is a moron, many people I meet in that milieu are not that stupid, everyone I meet outside that milieu is Wehrmacht
I’m just very frustrated, sorry to dump it all on you in this reply
(I recognize I am kinda blending my response to your messages and awoo’s at once)
That is to say, I don’t really think it’s fair to point to those who are going to be murdered by the state and say, “well, if they had just followed my idea”…
It’s fair if they are wrong. Allende’s death does not absolve him of very clearly and systematically fucking up.
“You will only survive with revolutionary organization and fervor” feels a bit like, “don’t siege Leningrad, just take it.”
No, it’s more like saying “You only have a chance of seizing Washington if you have a revolutionary apparatus with which to seize it, and some socdems in Congress are not such an apparatus, nor a major element of such an apparatus”. The Nazi example is ignoring how something is done and suggesting you can just make it so. The criticism here is the opposite, saying that demsoc types have a model of change that is literally nothing more than handwaving because if they wanted to be “socialists” while not handwaving, it would entail some conclusions that they are uncomfortable with supporting, so they don’t.
I’m kind of confused about who they “they” is in this comment. Is it always left-punching Socdems?
Their “organization” you mention ends up being the bourgeois state that continues to actually be controlled primarily by bourgeois interests. They’re not organizing it or each other, they are being organized by capital against the left but still claim it as their own victory. SocDems’ own organization tends to be things like door knocking and messaging campaigns and meandering confused rallies. SocDems don’t organize the cops (usually), they inherit the cops that already serve bourgeois interests and then fail to counter them, or even embrace them, unable or unwilling to address the underlying relations and power structures.
Regarding those murdered by the state, they are diverse and usually not remotely politically coherent. If we’re talking just about the left-punching SocDems, well yes I can blame them for their explicit actions against preparing for the violence and their actions to enable it. They got themselves and others killed, often for selfish or chauvinist reasons, and literally sent the cops at us and maimed and disabled and killed us. They are responsible for their own actions, especially those where they made conscious choices to dismiss, ignore, and oppress their correct left critics.
“You will only survive with revolutionary organization and fervor” feels a bit like, “don’t siege Leningrad, just take it.” Like, organization does not exist, but fascist death squads already do and are in my community and killing us. Any day now the international brigade will swoop in with weapons and training I guess
I don’t recall saying anything remotely like that.
If you want to talk about that subject, it is of course true that we have to organize to survive capitalist terrorism directed at us. What else could we ever materially do otherwise? It seems you’re criticizing wishcasting that simply didn’t happen.
Im not even saying this to argue for socdems or against whatever you would call your alternative
You may want to consider that you are kind of doing this, though you’re not exactly fairly presenting my alternative.
I’m just saying that where I live socdem elections are just about the only topic that pulls anyone to the left of Adolf Hitler, and every time I come to this forum it’s like just have a revolutionary org that is capable of out organizing the US terror apparatus.
Uh no if you want that to happen you have to put in a lot of work and read like a million books and become well-versed in securely agitating and organizing in the imperial core. I tell people to join or create organizations and give advice on how to start, no matter how small. At the smallest level where you start, yes it is just make a revolutionary organization. A small revolutionary organization can begin as a reading group of 4 people. 4 people isn’t enough but you’re also not alone and 4 becomes 8, 16, 32 etc if you steer it correctly. That’s actually the hard part and where I’d rather be giving advice. Keeping the thing running and growing.
Like, I’ve thought of that, people around the world have thought of that, thinking it doesn’t make it so, in fact talking about thinking it gets you killed by said terror apparatus. I don’t think that’s the fault of the thinkers
Who is telling you that it just happens? No work involved? That it’s easy or guaranteed?
Anyone who believes socdem politicians are the one and only avenue to salvation is a moron, many people I meet in that milieu are not that stupid, everyone I meet outside that milieu is Wehrmacht
What are the people who are in that milieu and “not that stupid” actively doing outside of electoral work and getting others involved in electoral work and uncritically reading Jacobin and spreading falsehoods about communists? These people are very rare because bourgeois electoralism tends to be all-consuming. It is architected to require bourgeois buy-in and if you don’t have it your work is endless. And if that’s how a person spending their “free” time, they at least implicitly think it’s the best use of time.
I don’t mean people who simply say electoralism isn’t everything. I mean people who actually organize via other means and take it seriously. I’ve been around countless DSA types, the only ones I’ve ever met who took other work seriously but still did electoralism were paid to do the electoralism as part of being an employee of a union.
I’m just very frustrated, sorry to dump it all on you in this reply
Yes I understand. But I also don’t accept it. Please ask for clarification or information rather than spreading false rumors.
In short, the source of my frustration is that the only organizing center in my community that I have found that successfully does this and doesn’t constantly have problems with people showing up:
At the smallest level where you start, yes it is just make a revolutionary organization. A small revolutionary organization can begin as a reading group of 4 people. 4 people isn’t enough but you’re also not alone and 4 becomes 8, 16, 32 etc if you steer it correctly.
…has been people I have met through socdem campaigns who are clear-eyed about the end efficacy of electoral entryism. Not everyone who works on those campaigns is like that; I find far more of the rubes you describe, but in my other organizations I just can’t find a consistent willingness like I do in that particular organizing space. That is why I think they are useful, because in my community it has brought me to like-minded people who are willing to do the work, have a radicalized viewpoint, and worked with me to get to where I am today when I was much more of a naive lib myself.
Maybe that is not everyone’s experience, but it is mine, and I have benefited from it. It annoys me when I come to the bear site and see that organizing work totally shredded, because I know how it radicalized me and the people around me. But ultimately this place is words on the internet and I shouldn’t let it frustrate me like it has here.
Thanks for chatting on the subject and I do appreciate your perspective
I kinda disagree… “They” are organized enough to have a variety of heavily armed and armored military and paramilitary apparatuses, chains of command, training, ammunition, lines of recruitment, drones, facial recognition technology, unfettered surveillance access to all my devices…
I am organized enough to have three or four nerds to make and hand out lentils with on the weekends, and even that activity sometimes feels like it puts a target on my back
That is to say, I don’t really think it’s fair to point to those who are going to be murdered by the state and say, “well, if they had just followed my idea”…
“You will only survive with revolutionary organization and fervor” feels a bit like, “don’t siege Leningrad, just take it.” Like, organization does not exist, but fascist death squads already do and are in my community and killing us. Any day now the international brigade will swoop in with weapons and training I guess
Im not even saying this to argue for socdems or against whatever you would call your alternative, I’m just saying that where I live socdem elections are just about the only topic that pulls anyone to the left of Adolf Hitler, and every time I come to this forum it’s like
just have a revolutionary org that is capable of out organizing the US terror apparatus. Like, I’ve thought of that, people around the world have thought of that, thinking it doesn’t make it so, in fact talking about thinking it gets you killed by said terror apparatus. I don’t think that’s the fault of the thinkers
Anyone who believes socdem politicians are the one and only avenue to salvation is a moron, many people I meet in that milieu are not that stupid, everyone I meet outside that milieu is Wehrmacht
I’m just very frustrated, sorry to dump it all on you in this reply
(I recognize I am kinda blending my response to your messages and awoo’s at once)
It’s fair if they are wrong. Allende’s death does not absolve him of very clearly and systematically fucking up.
No, it’s more like saying “You only have a chance of seizing Washington if you have a revolutionary apparatus with which to seize it, and some socdems in Congress are not such an apparatus, nor a major element of such an apparatus”. The Nazi example is ignoring how something is done and suggesting you can just make it so. The criticism here is the opposite, saying that demsoc types have a model of change that is literally nothing more than handwaving because if they wanted to be “socialists” while not handwaving, it would entail some conclusions that they are uncomfortable with supporting, so they don’t.
I’m kind of confused about who they “they” is in this comment. Is it always left-punching Socdems?
Their “organization” you mention ends up being the bourgeois state that continues to actually be controlled primarily by bourgeois interests. They’re not organizing it or each other, they are being organized by capital against the left but still claim it as their own victory. SocDems’ own organization tends to be things like door knocking and messaging campaigns and meandering confused rallies. SocDems don’t organize the cops (usually), they inherit the cops that already serve bourgeois interests and then fail to counter them, or even embrace them, unable or unwilling to address the underlying relations and power structures.
Regarding those murdered by the state, they are diverse and usually not remotely politically coherent. If we’re talking just about the left-punching SocDems, well yes I can blame them for their explicit actions against preparing for the violence and their actions to enable it. They got themselves and others killed, often for selfish or chauvinist reasons, and literally sent the cops at us and maimed and disabled and killed us. They are responsible for their own actions, especially those where they made conscious choices to dismiss, ignore, and oppress their correct left critics.
I don’t recall saying anything remotely like that.
If you want to talk about that subject, it is of course true that we have to organize to survive capitalist terrorism directed at us. What else could we ever materially do otherwise? It seems you’re criticizing wishcasting that simply didn’t happen.
You may want to consider that you are kind of doing this, though you’re not exactly fairly presenting my alternative.
Uh no if you want that to happen you have to put in a lot of work and read like a million books and become well-versed in securely agitating and organizing in the imperial core. I tell people to join or create organizations and give advice on how to start, no matter how small. At the smallest level where you start, yes it is just make a revolutionary organization. A small revolutionary organization can begin as a reading group of 4 people. 4 people isn’t enough but you’re also not alone and 4 becomes 8, 16, 32 etc if you steer it correctly. That’s actually the hard part and where I’d rather be giving advice. Keeping the thing running and growing.
Who is telling you that it just happens? No work involved? That it’s easy or guaranteed?
What are the people who are in that milieu and “not that stupid” actively doing outside of electoral work and getting others involved in electoral work and uncritically reading Jacobin and spreading falsehoods about communists? These people are very rare because bourgeois electoralism tends to be all-consuming. It is architected to require bourgeois buy-in and if you don’t have it your work is endless. And if that’s how a person spending their “free” time, they at least implicitly think it’s the best use of time.
I don’t mean people who simply say electoralism isn’t everything. I mean people who actually organize via other means and take it seriously. I’ve been around countless DSA types, the only ones I’ve ever met who took other work seriously but still did electoralism were paid to do the electoralism as part of being an employee of a union.
Yes I understand. But I also don’t accept it. Please ask for clarification or information rather than spreading false rumors.
In short, the source of my frustration is that the only organizing center in my community that I have found that successfully does this and doesn’t constantly have problems with people showing up:
…has been people I have met through socdem campaigns who are clear-eyed about the end efficacy of electoral entryism. Not everyone who works on those campaigns is like that; I find far more of the rubes you describe, but in my other organizations I just can’t find a consistent willingness like I do in that particular organizing space. That is why I think they are useful, because in my community it has brought me to like-minded people who are willing to do the work, have a radicalized viewpoint, and worked with me to get to where I am today when I was much more of a naive lib myself.
Maybe that is not everyone’s experience, but it is mine, and I have benefited from it. It annoys me when I come to the bear site and see that organizing work totally shredded, because I know how it radicalized me and the people around me. But ultimately this place is words on the internet and I shouldn’t let it frustrate me like it has here.
Thanks for chatting on the subject and I do appreciate your perspective