the one objective universe is already big enough to fill everyone’s identities AND everything else. That’s why we call it the universe :-)
If there’d be no objective truth we can ALL see, experience and share, you’d not be sitting at a computer now and chat with me.
The existence of a reality outside your wishes doesn’t mean there’s a correlation between racism (and all the other evils you mentioned and more) and reality.
Also it’s no matter of “belief”. It just is. It is beyond my judgement and beyond my control. Yet i’m neither a racist, nor an ablist or whichever -ism you want. And i also despise religion and capitalism.
Why should any of those things be objective or subjective? we define them, as a society, and be done with it. We all know what capitalism is.
Donald Hoffman performed thousands of experiments examining the evolutionary roots of perception. He created a simulated world and populated it with organisms that accurately perceive the world, and organisms that only perceive fitness payoffs.
Fitness always beats truth. Organisms that perceive objective reality always go extinct. That includes our distant primordial ancestors. Perceiving objective reality is a waste of resources, it’s inefficient. That’s why we don’t. Like Hoffman’s fitness perceiving organisms, we perceive fitness payoffs, not objective reality. Things like objects, spacetime, colour, see just artefacts of our simplified perceptual interface. They’re not objective reality.
A lot of fancy words to say…nothing.
Of course we’re bound by our limited senses. Yet your subjective reality is the same as mine and everyone else’s. Otherwise there’d be no internet where you could say such things. And if we all perceive the same subjective reality, it kinda is our species’ objective reality. Everything beyond that is great for a philosophical discussion that ultimately leads to nowhere :)
No, My subjective reality isn’t the same as yours. They share some features, such as the internet. But they’re very different in other respects. For example, I respect otherkin. Otherkin are those whose species identity is different than human. It comes down to a difference in the brain, same as being trans. Since I’m an antirealist who values respect for identity over the social construct of species, I choose to perceive otherkin as they wish to be perceived. I spent time training Myself to be able to rewrite My perceptions so that I could perceive people as they wish to be perceived with less effort.
That does have nothing much to do with reality. I have no problems with trans-people or even otherkins (which i never met btw).
Of course not all our hardware works 100% identical, but that doesn’t change reality of the hardware being mostly the same :-)
I really fail to see your connection between being open-minded towards others and being “antirealist”. The trans-brain isn’t different from any one else’s. The gender-dysphoria in it is. Still has no influence on respect. At least it SHOULD not have.
Let Me ask a question, and I think this question will help you understand what I’m talking about. If you met a monkey-kin at an ice cream social, having initially perceived them to have a human body, would you upon being properly introduced, hypnotise yourself into seeing a monkey tail behind them?
Well, why should I do that? And why would i? What benefit was gained for the monkeyman or me?
Though I would be amazed by my fantasy if I could actually pull that off.
Do you do that? And, haven’t not yet met or even heard of someone identifying as a monkey (or anything else nonhuman), I would have a lot of questions. And I mean actually identifying as such, not just larping as a furry or doing it as some kind of kink.
Anyhow, it would still not really make a strong point as to being “anti reality”. First, you knew before you’d hypnotize yourself, it is objectively a human. As a monkey couldn’t even tell you it is one. It just is.
I would classify that as an incredible Fantasy (not meant in a condescending way!) But not an opposition to reality. A wide opened mind with a fantastic imagination. That.
I do do everything I can to see that monkey tail. Like I said, I value that person’s identity over the social construct of species.
I’ve never met a monkey-kin either. It’s actually a super rare kintype. I think that’s because monkeys are so closely related to humans, that all the monkeys out there don’t tend to notice their species dysphoria. It’s too subtle.
But I’m dating a shark I met online. Its name is Ivy. Ivy’s come to visit Australia, and while it was here, I put in the effort to perceive its tail. It really likes getting its tail stroked, so I did that. There was no physical contact in consensus reality, but Ivy really liked it.
If Ivy heard you say that it’s objectively a human, Ivy would be sad. That’s not the way Ivy sees it. Ivy doesn’t want to be a human. Ivy’s a shark. It doesn’t believe in species the same way you believe in species. Neither do I. Neither of us thinks species is so important that it should be held above people’s identities.
You’re evidently on the far right end of open-mindedness. That’s cool. In a stupid world like this even more so.
Of course I wouldn’t want it to be sad. Yet I would have tons of questions that only the “objective reality”-ivy could answer.
I mean, it’s pretty obvious it’s no shark but a human that sees itself as a shark. But also as a human, or else it would’ve drowned already trying to get to its kin. And not found their way to you. Or even you online.
Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with whatever someone identifies as. Due to my voluntary work, I got some friends with DIS, so i, too, had my encounters with “subjective reality”, even in the form of a protective wolf.
But, I also see the underlying issue. Dysphoria is not a healthy thing and rarely leads to a fulfilled and happy life. (Not saying DIS is the same, but symptoms overlap). A body-dyphoria where you can’t stand the existence of your left leg can be “cured” by just removing it. Gender-dysphoria can be helped with hormones. But species? That sure can only end up highly depressed.
Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t treat that person with respect or not take her otherkin not serious.
But there are limits. How do I respectfully treat a shark? Put it in a watery cage to be safe and throw it into the ocean? Probably not. The moment I talk with it, I already don’t take it serious, do I?
BTW, I would prefer to not be human too. This species is the worst. And I also would prefer to be a Disney princess where birds land on my arms and talk to me. But I am human and no princess, and birds fly away. What good would it do me if I just started to believe I am what I would prefer to be? (Supposing I could)
the one objective universe is already big enough to fill everyone’s identities AND everything else. That’s why we call it the universe :-)
If there’d be no objective truth we can ALL see, experience and share, you’d not be sitting at a computer now and chat with me. The existence of a reality outside your wishes doesn’t mean there’s a correlation between racism (and all the other evils you mentioned and more) and reality. Also it’s no matter of “belief”. It just is. It is beyond my judgement and beyond my control. Yet i’m neither a racist, nor an ablist or whichever -ism you want. And i also despise religion and capitalism. Why should any of those things be objective or subjective? we define them, as a society, and be done with it. We all know what capitalism is.
Donald Hoffman performed thousands of experiments examining the evolutionary roots of perception. He created a simulated world and populated it with organisms that accurately perceive the world, and organisms that only perceive fitness payoffs.
Fitness always beats truth. Organisms that perceive objective reality always go extinct. That includes our distant primordial ancestors. Perceiving objective reality is a waste of resources, it’s inefficient. That’s why we don’t. Like Hoffman’s fitness perceiving organisms, we perceive fitness payoffs, not objective reality. Things like objects, spacetime, colour, see just artefacts of our simplified perceptual interface. They’re not objective reality.
A lot of fancy words to say…nothing. Of course we’re bound by our limited senses. Yet your subjective reality is the same as mine and everyone else’s. Otherwise there’d be no internet where you could say such things. And if we all perceive the same subjective reality, it kinda is our species’ objective reality. Everything beyond that is great for a philosophical discussion that ultimately leads to nowhere :)
No, My subjective reality isn’t the same as yours. They share some features, such as the internet. But they’re very different in other respects. For example, I respect otherkin. Otherkin are those whose species identity is different than human. It comes down to a difference in the brain, same as being trans. Since I’m an antirealist who values respect for identity over the social construct of species, I choose to perceive otherkin as they wish to be perceived. I spent time training Myself to be able to rewrite My perceptions so that I could perceive people as they wish to be perceived with less effort.
That does have nothing much to do with reality. I have no problems with trans-people or even otherkins (which i never met btw). Of course not all our hardware works 100% identical, but that doesn’t change reality of the hardware being mostly the same :-) I really fail to see your connection between being open-minded towards others and being “antirealist”. The trans-brain isn’t different from any one else’s. The gender-dysphoria in it is. Still has no influence on respect. At least it SHOULD not have.
Let Me ask a question, and I think this question will help you understand what I’m talking about. If you met a monkey-kin at an ice cream social, having initially perceived them to have a human body, would you upon being properly introduced, hypnotise yourself into seeing a monkey tail behind them?
Well, why should I do that? And why would i? What benefit was gained for the monkeyman or me? Though I would be amazed by my fantasy if I could actually pull that off.
Do you do that? And, haven’t not yet met or even heard of someone identifying as a monkey (or anything else nonhuman), I would have a lot of questions. And I mean actually identifying as such, not just larping as a furry or doing it as some kind of kink.
Anyhow, it would still not really make a strong point as to being “anti reality”. First, you knew before you’d hypnotize yourself, it is objectively a human. As a monkey couldn’t even tell you it is one. It just is. I would classify that as an incredible Fantasy (not meant in a condescending way!) But not an opposition to reality. A wide opened mind with a fantastic imagination. That.
I do do everything I can to see that monkey tail. Like I said, I value that person’s identity over the social construct of species.
I’ve never met a monkey-kin either. It’s actually a super rare kintype. I think that’s because monkeys are so closely related to humans, that all the monkeys out there don’t tend to notice their species dysphoria. It’s too subtle.
But I’m dating a shark I met online. Its name is Ivy. Ivy’s come to visit Australia, and while it was here, I put in the effort to perceive its tail. It really likes getting its tail stroked, so I did that. There was no physical contact in consensus reality, but Ivy really liked it.
If Ivy heard you say that it’s objectively a human, Ivy would be sad. That’s not the way Ivy sees it. Ivy doesn’t want to be a human. Ivy’s a shark. It doesn’t believe in species the same way you believe in species. Neither do I. Neither of us thinks species is so important that it should be held above people’s identities.
You’re evidently on the far right end of open-mindedness. That’s cool. In a stupid world like this even more so.
Of course I wouldn’t want it to be sad. Yet I would have tons of questions that only the “objective reality”-ivy could answer. I mean, it’s pretty obvious it’s no shark but a human that sees itself as a shark. But also as a human, or else it would’ve drowned already trying to get to its kin. And not found their way to you. Or even you online.
Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with whatever someone identifies as. Due to my voluntary work, I got some friends with DIS, so i, too, had my encounters with “subjective reality”, even in the form of a protective wolf.
But, I also see the underlying issue. Dysphoria is not a healthy thing and rarely leads to a fulfilled and happy life. (Not saying DIS is the same, but symptoms overlap). A body-dyphoria where you can’t stand the existence of your left leg can be “cured” by just removing it. Gender-dysphoria can be helped with hormones. But species? That sure can only end up highly depressed.
Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t treat that person with respect or not take her otherkin not serious. But there are limits. How do I respectfully treat a shark? Put it in a watery cage to be safe and throw it into the ocean? Probably not. The moment I talk with it, I already don’t take it serious, do I?
BTW, I would prefer to not be human too. This species is the worst. And I also would prefer to be a Disney princess where birds land on my arms and talk to me. But I am human and no princess, and birds fly away. What good would it do me if I just started to believe I am what I would prefer to be? (Supposing I could)