I’ve been part of the online left for a while now, part of slrpnk about 2 months, and if there’s one recurring experience that’s both exhausting and revealing, it’s trying to have good-faith discussions with self-identified Marxist-Leninists, the kind often referred to as “tankies.” I use that term here not as a lazy insult nor to dehumanize, but to describe a particular kind of online personality: the ones who dogmatically defend Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and every so-called “existing socialist state” past or present, without room for nuance, critique, or even basic empathy. Not all Marxist-Leninists are like this. But these people, these tankies, show up in every thread, every debate, every conversation about liberation, and somehow it always turns into a predictable mess.
It usually goes like this: I make a statement that critiques authoritarianism or centralized power, and suddenly I’m being accused of parroting CIA talking points, being a liberal in disguise, or not being a “real leftist.” One time, I said “Totalitarianism kills” — a simple, arguably uncontroversial point. What followed was a barrage of replies claiming that the term was invented by Nazis, that Hannah Arendt (who apparently popularized it, I looked it up and it turns out she didn’t) was an anti-semite, and that even using the word is inherently reactionary. When I clarified that I was speaking broadly about state violence and authoritarian mechanisms, the same people just doubled down, twisting my words, inventing claims I never made, and eventually accusing me of being some kind of crypto-fascist. This wasn’t a one-off, it happens constantly.
If you’ve spent any time in these spaces, you know what I’m talking about. The conversations never stays on topic. It always loops back to defending state socialism, reciting quotes from Lenin, minimizing atrocities as “bourgeois propaganda” and dragging anarchism as naive or counter-revolutionary. It’s like they’re playing from a script.
I’ve spent a lot of time trying to understand why these interactions feel so uniquely frustrating. And over time, I’ve started noticing recurring patterns in the kind of people who show up this way. Again, a disclaimer here: not everyone who defends Marx or Lenin online falls into these patterns. There are thoughtful, sincere, and principled MLs who engage in real, grounded discussions. But then there are these other types:
- The Theory Maximalist
This person treats political theory like scripture. They’ve read the texts (probably a lot of them) and they approach every conversation like a chance to prove their mastery. Everything becomes about citations, dialectics, and abstract arguments. When faced with real-world contradictions, their default move is to bury it under more theory. They mistake being well-read for being politically mature, and often completely miss the human, relational side of radical politics.
- The Identity Leftist
For this person, being a leftist isn’t about organizing or material change. It’s an identity. They call themselves a Marxist-Leninist the way someone else might call themselves a punk or a metalhead. Defending state socialism becomes a cultural performance. They’re less interested in the complexity of history than in being on the “correct side” of whatever aesthetic battle they’re fighting. Anarchists, to them, represent softness or chaos, and that’s a threat to the image they’ve built for themselves.
- The Terminally Online Subculturalist
This one lives in forums, Discords, or other niche Internet circles. Their entire political world is digital. They’ve likely never been to a union meeting, a mutual aid drive, or a community organizing session. All their knowledge of struggle is mediated through memes and screenshots. They treat ideology like a fandom and conflict like sport. They love the drama, the takedowns, the purity contests. The actual work of liberation? Irrelevant.
- The Alienated Intellectual
This person is often very smart, often very isolated, and clings to ideology as a way of making sense of the world. They’re drawn to strict political systems because it gives them order and meaning in a chaotic life. And while they might not be malicious, they often struggle to engage with disagreement without feeling personally attacked. For them, criticism of Marxism-Leninism can feel like an existential threat, because it destabilizes the fragile structure they’ve built to cope with life.
These types don’t describe everyone, and they’re not meant to be a diagnosis or a dismissal. They’re patterns I’ve noticed. Ways that a political identity can become rigid, defensive, and disconnected from real-world struggle.
And here’s the thing that’s always struck me as particularly ironic: Let’s face it, a lot of these people would absolutely hate to be part of real socialist organizing. Because the kind of organizing that builds power, the kind that helps people survive, defend themselves, and grow; it’s messy, emotionally challenging, and full of conflict. It requires flexibility, listening, and compromise. It doesn’t work if everyone’s just quoting dead guys and calling each other traitors. Anarchist or not, actual socialist practice is grounded in real life, not in endless internet warfare.
That’s why this whole cycle feels so tragic. Because behind all the posturing, the purity tests, and the ideological gatekeeping, there’s a legit reason these people ended up here. Of all the ideologies in the world, they chose communism. Why? Probably because they hurt. Because they saw the ugliness of capitalism and wanted something better. Because, at some point, they were moved by the idea that we could live without exploitation.
And somewhere along the way, that desire got calcified into a set of talking points. It got buried under defensiveness and online clout games. The pain turned inward, and now they lash out at anyone who doesn’t match their script. That’s not an excuse. But it is something to hold with empathy.
I don’t write this to mock anyone. I write it because I want us to do better, recognize our differences and hopefully come to a fair conclusion. And Idk, I still believe we can. Ape together strong 💖
I have never seen any discussion like you are describing. However I see a post complaining of tankies every day.
self-identified Marxist-Leninists, the kind often referred to as “tankies.”
Tankie is a term that NAFO bodysnatcher nazi US empire lovers use to criticize those who oppose US empire’s geopolitical extortion. Naziism is simply superior to Russia’s self defense needs, or China’s humanist abundance strategy. There is no need to support Marxism to be called a tankie. US puppet democracy simply must be considered supreme, and no matter how distant the human rights abuses (that far pale in comparison to even current US evil) of those resisting US evil, you are a tankie for not favouring US naziism and genocide.
tankie is simply a brainwashing insult meant to uphold the illusory “good vs evil historical narrative the audience learned in grade school from pledge of allegiance”
Identity Leftist
It is common in anarchist circles for feminist/queer supremacists, identity pride, to view anarchism as a platform to launch a new fascist order where their identity values rule supreme. The evil of religion/church is identity pride that replaces “thou shalt not kill” principles. Where Marxism is labour identity supremacism, that too becomes a basis for fascism.
Regardless of Citizen’s united, money has always been speech. So, corporatist/oligarchist/capitalist supremacy can spend on divisivness to grant them supremacism. Zionism has always been the Empire’s friend, but it was ultimate alliance point for oligarchy in last election.
Freedom dividends/UBI is far more important than democracy. It permits fair/fairer markets, where labour is not priced based on the desperation level of labour, and returns on capital reflects the opportunity for competition. UBI is less about wealth redistribution as it is power redistribution. Less of a master, is far more achievable than a vacuum opportunity for new masters.
The only thing I will add is that the “Theory Maximalists” don’t actually seem to have read a lot of the theory they claim. Or when they do, they don’t have a border background in political science to contextualize it. It’s literally the leftist equivalent of Plato’s cave.
I am relieved to read this.
I can’t strictly identify with your beliefs, but the “this country versus that country” conversations are driving me nuts; as though any government is ideal, or free from corruption.
Tankies are just another extremist cult, that’s extremely online.
Authoritarian Communists have a long tradition of fracturing into political sects. The whole theory heavy stuff is alike to religious texts and their interpretation.
These are political cults. They prey on the weak and lost by giving them something to believe in and a community of sorts. They can only stay part of the community by ideological purity.
This gives these small groups outsized propaganda reach. They will attack all leftists for not being extreme enough. That has a chilling effect.
Todays society, especially on social media, is fractured into small groups that punish disagreement harshly. Gen Z is more into conformity for example.
It’s like you said, an identity or fandom picked by vibes. Actual political change is irrelevant.
Prime example: the biggest left political streamer Hassan Piker is an extremist anti west tankie.
This tankie left completely ignores everything Frankfurt School for example. It‘s just about disillusionment and being anti west.
You’re a zionist. I frankly take offense on the behalf of all leftists to have someone like you pretend to represent our world view. You’re not a leftist, you’re a genocide supporting reactionary. The irony of you talking about “preying on the weak” and punching left in your psychoanalyzing drivel is clear as day. All you can do is punch left, because everyone here is left of you.
Also funny that you would mention your own personal parasocial feud with a streamer when everyone else is trying to have an adult discussion about politics, while maintaining that a broad century old worldwide movement is a “fandom”.
Zionist as in, I think Israel has a right to exist, sure. Palestinians have a right to self determination as well. I don’t support genocide.
Hamas are Islamists, which is right wing extremist, if you haven’t noticed. They are against everything leftist.
I don’t write this to mock anyone. I write it because I want us to do better, recognize our differences and hopefully come to a fair conclusion. And Idk, I still believe we can. Ape together strong 💖
I’ve always defended that aswell, and I guess I’ve chosen my communities well enough to never see outright hatred towards anarchists within the ML circles I’m a part of. Not gonna argue that it’s not the case when it comes to talking about liberals, there is a lot of frustration and resentment, but I think the current state of the world and the historical treatment of commies/anarchists alike justifies that.
There’s disagreements of course (regarding the nature of authority and some historical events), and some unserious jokes, but the news sources, podcasts, online discussion that I consume often feature anarchists in a completely non-adversarial way. There’s quite a few anarchists who I defer to first when it comes to current and historical analysis. I’ve recently discovered Greg Stoker on an ML podcast for example. He is a US army veteran turned anarchist, has great insights into US military and foreign policies and is someone I’ve listened to a lot ever since.
I do see a lot of hate aimed at Marxism-Leninism, but I choose to ignore it. I’m responding to this post because I think it is genuine. Marxism (dialectical materialism) has been the most valuable tool for me to make sense of the world, but the main drive that makes me desperately need to understand the world and try my best to move in the right direction is anti-imperialism.
It’s not the need for an identity, dogmatism to fit in, or because I think it’s “cool” (which would be delusional, even among leftist spaces). If there’s one reason it’s all the horrors I’ve seen and read about that keep me up at night. There’s psychos in all our movements, and you won’t see me stand for people defending the invasion of Ukraine for example (I’m not sure what’s going on in those folks’ heads to be honest, but it’s definitely not theory). While I can’t take seriously a lot of the accusations commonly thrown at Marxism-Leninism, I at least understand the fear and unease behind authority as a whole.
My informed belief is that this fear is manufactured in big part as a way to prevent oppressed people from seizing power (directing very real oppression towards “human nature” or the nature of authority), and this is something that has sunk its teeth so deeply in us that I can’t seem to find a TV show or movie these days that doesn’t feature the “false prophet that ended up being worse than the oppressor” trope.
Regardless, I’ve seen countless grounded, empathetic discussions between different leftists currents that didn’t resort to name calling and willful mischaracterizations, so I second you entirely on this point comrade, I’d love to see more of that ❤️
Both sides need to calm down.
Say what you want but in today’s world, north korea is the only country that truely knows how to deal with the right wingers. I don’t care much about the left. I am not a leftist. I am an antirighter.
Beside, the west sent billions of tanks to israel. Libs are the real tankiez
This comment feels like it was written by a Markov chain
Not an anarchist, but I think this is an excellent write-up, good job.
Though, I could argue that points 2, 3 and 4 aren’t necessarily exclusive to ML’s but rather the online ideology cultures as a whole - Anarchists, Communists, Liberals, Conservatives or Nazis included. There’s always going to be terminally online people who make political ideologies as their personality and attacks upon them being taken as personal attacks, and this doesn’t apply to ideologies exclusively but rather to hobbies like video games as well. However, both from what I’ve seen and experienced, it is just a phase that does blow over - after a while the enthusiasm subsides, other interests start taking priority, and while the ideas do stay, they do become less prominent and room opens for a more nuanced discussion.
Frankly I’ve also run into #1 from different directions too, people can be dogmatic from any tendency.
Personally I find their constant bad faith arguments tiring so I usually don’t engage. Many campists have the right critique of the existing systems but are useless at knowing what to do to change it. Their best takes are usually to emulate socialist movements of the early 20th century like a cargo cult and hope if they do the same motions, it will magically lead to the same socialism (with them on the vanguard ofc). So ultimately worthless praxis built on stale rhetoric. It’s telling that even the most “left unity” oriented campists manage to thoroughly alienating most of those they believe they should be united with.
It’s telling that even the most “left unity” oriented campists manage to thoroughly alienating most of those they believe they should be united with.
Every time they say left unity, it means “agree with us or you’re ignored.”
You don’t want to have a state when where done? What about left unity! It’ll go away in 5, 10 years tops.
You think having labor camps makes us as bad as capitalists? That’s silly, what happened to left unity?
Every time an anarchist group works with a state socialist group, they are often the last ones removed when the Statists can secure enough of a foothold without them.
Every. Time. I might be willing to work with them to get something removed but if they want to just swap the flag of the state instead of abolishing it, they just want to be the person who stomps on the faces of the workers they claim to support.
You think having labor camps makes us as bad as capitalists? That’s silly, what happened to left unity?
Exactly this. It makes me more inclined to think all of them are Russian troll accounts sent to further divide us rather than actual people. And if they’re actual people, I still very much don’t find them worthy of engaging with.
I have noticed how they often use identical tactics to the Alt-Right movement in the USA, as described masterfully in Innuendo Studios’ The Alt Right Playbook. As such, I’ve started thinking of tankies as a kind of Alt-Left, where facts matter little to none and instead feelings are supreme - though exclusively theirs, while yours count for little (although ironically not none, bc cruelty is the point).
And since algorithms that foster “engagement” tend to make this argumentation style more prevalent, it is becoming more prominent all over the world.
Sadly, it’s fairly prominent in Lemmy as well, though tbf, we who came here from Reddit joined their space, not the other way around. This is why supporting independent development of software such as PieFed and Mbin is so crucial, bc otherwise authoritarianism seeps into everything. E.g. Lemmy has a modlog but no modmail, no notification sent to inform the recipient of a moderation action, no ability to enquire or dispute it even if you somehow find out about it - bc the modlog simply says it was done by a “mod” - and therefore Lemmy is actually somehow more authoritian than Reddit itself was??? (Caveat: admins have near total freedom, at the cost of potentially great efforts required to modify the codebase, and mods have elevated privileges as well, but for the end user… it is much the same, at least with regard to a specific community - they can take what it offers, or else leave).
What makes the Threadiverse fantastic and worth visiting is its userbase. Highly ironically then, what makes the Threadiverse toxic AF is its userbase. 🙃 (So many people over on r/RedditAlternatives saying how they could not tolerate it…) Thus, blocking it is then, with people who use such bad faith arguments chief among my own prioritization for such. (Btw it’s not really possible to fully block all users from a specific instance on Lemmy - that feature would have far better been named as a “community mute” imho - unless you use the Sync or Connect app, switch to PieFed, or delve into making Ublock filters or creating your own instance to defederate them, none of them particularly easy to do, for a mainstream non-technical normie, who might otherwise be a fantastic content creator if the Threadiverse hadn’t decided to run them off with its high level of toxicity.)
On the alt-right playbook, at the end of the day its mostly an analysis of fascism as an analysis of rhetoric. I would argue that I’ve see most of these strategies used by people of every single tendency. I haven’t caught up since they returned from hiatus, but ironically the way they’re presented would be something I would point to as an example of #1, announcing rhetorical devices authoritatively like you’re reading from scripture or something.
If anything since the first run of alt-right playbook the alt right has just won and become the right.
I’ve been having a decent time here. sure there is an asshole here and there but that’s just GIFT for ya. the threadiverse feels like reddit back when it didn’t suck
The users here are definitely a higher quality than Reddit.
Or much lower, depending on where you go. Your instance is defederated from ~95% of the worst of the bad faith tankie posts though, so your recent experience is a success story that blocking such works to help people enjoy themselves here!
In contrast, I almost left the Threadiverse myself, after being trolled in both Hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml (again, both of which slrpnk.net is defederated from) by making innocuous comments (I thought) yet receiving spam replies for WEEKS and WEEKS afterwards. Tbf that is kinda the entire purpose of ChapoTrapHouse@hexbear.net - to dunk on lib takes (or even ones not leftist enough) - but a new person (me!) wouldn’t know that by arriving at a random post by browsing All, which doesn’t show the sidebar text anywhere before you have a chance to reply in a comment. I would rather not use social media entirely than have to constantly put up with such.
So instead I switched instances, getting rid of lemmygrad.ml, then petitioned the new one to defederate from Hexbear.net, which was successful, then switched to PieFed which allows me to block all users from any instance I choose without requiring admin support, and thereby blocked lemmy.ml. I managed to get rid of the entire Big Three in my feed! And yes it does make experiencing the Threadiverse much better 😊.
I was curious so I checked the hexbear modlog, you posted a weird comment and people posted a lot of “wtf” replies, the mod message for removing your comment was
I’m honestly not sure what you’re referencing, but most of the responses here were just people making fun of you for blaming Putin for funding Israel?
Honestly, a good portion of them probably are the alt right. For some reason leftists on Lemmy have been taken in by this idea that everyone they talk to who purports to be a leftist must be taken at their word in good faith, even if everything they say literally sounds like a right-wing parody of leftism.
The fact that this vulnerability exists necessitates that we assume it’s being used.
Why did the economist walk straight past a $1000 bill sitting in the middle of the sidewalk? Because if it had been there someone would have already picked it up.
It would be absolutely absurd to assume that no conservatives are cosplaying as leftists spouting exactly the stuff they accuse leftists of spouting and doing everything they can to disrupt any form of leftist solidarity. It’s a $1000 bill sitting in the middle of the sidewalk that we can literally watch them picking up if we’re not too willfully naive to acknowledge that it’s happening.
Would you leave a secure server open with the password to the root account literally on the front page? No? Then why is anyone leaving this vulnerability wide open and pretending it isn’t?
I think you just described the genesis of Hexbear:-D.
I’ve had a tankie tell me alt right playbook is Nazi propaganda before
Wow. That’s either some serious head-up-the-ass or a depressing lack of listening comprehension.
“Everything the other side does is wrong, while my own side is incapable of doing wrong.” While somehow at the same time, “bOtH sIdEs SaMe”. It sounds tribal to me… yet what do I know 🤔.
Some people simply like to be contrarian and troll online communities, including leftist ones. Or they’re doing it out of anger or despair or low self esteem (or they’re paid to by a government lol). Good modding, that has the tools, time, and numbers to do a good job, may be an answer to that side of it.
Otherwise, I think being involved with local irl groups doing things and then posting report backs is going to be a less-theoretical form of posting. I’d hope that would lead to more productive and inspiring discussions.
Thanks for your post!
One thing we don’t understand is why the focus is always on marx/lenin and marxist-leninism. Surely not all anarchist thought and actions are based on that and indeed there has probably been more thought since them which has critiqued it or just moved on from it.
Anyway, interesting writeup and discussion. Not sure we fit into any of these neatly as we’ve had a complicated history politically, we realise there is more we could be doing though, we just aren’t sure how yet.
I’ve had similar experiences - endless tiring bad faith discussions. I sincerely believe market socialism is a realistic step we can take to improve human condition, but they seem convinced against it and hell bent on ‘revolution’. It’s clearly a cult with group think, they’ve arrived at their conclusions by reading theory, not from personal experience, self awareness, empathy & logic.
Of all the ideologies in the world, they chose communism. Why? Probably because they hurt. Because they saw the ugliness of capitalism and wanted something better. Because, at some point, they were moved by the idea that we could live without exploitation. […] The pain turned inward, and now they lash out at anyone who doesn’t match their script. That’s not an excuse. But it is something to hold with empathy.
I wish I could easily subscribe to your call for empathy. The reason why I can’t is because I have seen so many tankies deny the pain of others. It’s not just the historical revisionism and the denial of Stalinist atrocities, but denying that people in the here and now are suffering like they do. Often this was tied to them insisting that they had every right to abuse others, because they themselves were suffering from capitalism. They completely failed to acknowledge that everyone around them was suffering under the very same conditions.
And there is the crux of the issue: One unspoken, implicit tenet of their beliefs is the denying others the same humanity they claim to uphold and represent. They demand to be accepted and their behavior to be tolerated, but will not grant the same basic rights to others.
The same notion allows them to deny the humanity of victims of Stalinist and Maoist terror.And that’s why I have a hard time to show them empathy, because I know they will not show the same empathy towards me.
I have seen so many tankies deny the pain of others
That’s as often as not tit-for-tat. In my experience, particularly when “Tankie” is flung out as a slur rather than a serious material analysis, you’ll see people respond in what is effectively an in-kind retort. “My grandparents left Cuba because they were being persecuted by the villainous Castro government! You’re a tankie if you support them!” often signals a person (or online persona) that’s aligned itself with a class of Cuban who profited from the abusive practices of slave plantations and child brothels, pre-Revolution.
Go straight back to the term’s root - the 1956 Hungarian Revolution and the subsequent quashing by Khrushchev’s armored cavalry - and what you’re effectively advocating in defense of is a CIA/Nazi collaborative stay-behind network that ushered in the Years of Lead. Are we expected to show empathy for the Hungarian Rebels if they’d been bombing and butchering civilians a decade earlier without compunction?
One unspoken, implicit tenet of their beliefs is the denying others the same humanity they claim to uphold and represent.
Empathy cuts both ways. It isn’t merely a sense of naive compassion and maudlin despair at the atrocity du jour. Empathy can be a source of fiery opposition and vengeful passion, in response to historical crimes and horrors committed by the current-day self-professed victims.
that’s why I have a hard time to show them empathy
Understandable. But again, that’s exactly the position these “tankie” types are coming from. They’re reading the history from a different angle and viewing the revolutionary violence of a given period as social justice extracted by an empowered proletariat. They’re reading your defense of the historic persecutors as a defense of prior persecutions and an obstruction of justice - possibly even an apology for revanchism and a return to the old horrors.
To reference Mark Twain
“THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.”
― Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court
I am not going to respond to you in detail, because - I think - we mostly agree with each other, but allow me to explain where I am coming from with an anecdote: I was once part of a grassroots movement which aimed to unionize a particular sector of the entertainment industry. (Sorry, for being vague, even after all those years, the events are still a sore point for many involved.) There were a few hundred people taking part in all of this.
One chunk of people who joined the group were the worst kind of tankies who would hurl abuse at anyone who did not agree with them. The reasons for that behavior varied and ranged from the entirely trivial to the usual “Stalinism was great, anybody who says something different is a CIA plant.”
One regular point of contention was tankies’ demand to include praise for China in the group’s official communications, which was way off topic for what the group was about. Of course, most of the group refused and - because the tankies were a very vocal minority, they could not ultimately prevent democratic decisions of the majority. Which - of course - annoyed them even more and created even more drama. Rinse and repeat.
The group ultimately imploded during the Black Lives Matter protests. One major reason for that was because the tankies prevented a statement of solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement. AFAIR the justification was something like “fighting racism is a distraction from the real struggle of the working class”. Most of the PoCs left the group in exasperation because the group could not even speak out against racist police violence without the tankies completely derailing the proceedings.
The reason why I bring this up is because this was a group of workers who were actively working on organizing a worker’s movement. But it was not enough for the tankies, they had to bring in their political sectarianism and demanding adherence to it, while simultaneously claiming that the others in the group did not represent workers like they did and thus the tankies were justified to pressure and abuse the other members until they agreed with the tankies’ positions.
So yes, empathy cuts both ways. And I may have empathy for tankies on a personal level, but if people can’t leave their ill behavior at the door and show solidarity towards their fellow workers when trying to get a grassroots movement off the ground, then these people have no place in it.
Go straight back to the term’s root - the 1956 Hungarian Revolution and the subsequent quashing by Khrushchev’s armored cavalry - and what you’re effectively advocating in defense of is a CIA/Nazi collaborative stay-behind network that ushered in the Years of Lead. Are we expected to show empathy for the Hungarian Rebels if they’d been bombing and butchering civilians a decade earlier without compunction?
You are conflating the resistance to the Russian backed Hungarian regime with the ‘years of lead’ in Italy, which are two entirely unrelated events… also you call the uprising a CIA/Nazi collaborative.
I’ve never read anything from any scholar (holding a degree in history) that has used those terms in discussing the Hungarian uprising and frankly… It smacks a bit of:
reading the history from a different angle and viewing the revolutionary violence of a given period as social justice extracted by an empowered proletariat.
That’s your quote on what tankie terrific is like.
