So what then? Everyone hug and get along? You understand there’s way too many aggressively stupid people out there that believe profoundly idiotic shit that peace will never be a thing long beyond the sun itself aging into a supernova.
You focus too much on physical aggression to fight physical aggression.
Ever heard of diplomacy? Of political, economic, industrial pressure? What about all the wars that were prevented due to clever people making some clever moves that did not involve murder on a systematic scale.
Furthermore, we’ve spent an incredible amount of resources on perfectioning killing each other, and barely on exploring ways to wage war without killing.
Ever heard of diplomacy? Of political, economic, industrial pressure? What about all the wars that were prevented due to clever people making some clever moves that did not involve murder on a systematic scale.
There are times where none of this works, then what?
Take Ukraine for example. They gained their independence peacefully and democratically. After their independence, their talented diplomats and leaders made the unpredencted move to diplomatically negotiate a deal with their former oppressors to give up their entire nuclear arsenal in exchange for a promise of peace, and they even leveraged Western powers to serve as mediators and witnesses to showcase that their intentions genuine to the world. Russia signed the agreement with a smile, and then on to invade annex Crimea in 2014 as well as start the war in Donbass in 2014 in complete violation of the agreement.
The West saw this violation as an insult against their goodwill and their diplomacy as well as a challenge to their power so they backed Ukraine and applied severe political and economic sanctions on Russia. This forced Russia to come to the negotiation table in September of that year where they, again, promised to cease all hostilities against Ukraine if Ukraine agreed to freeze the conflict on the current frontlines. Ukraine agreed and the ceasefire was violated by Russia immediately.
At that point, Ukraine wanted to fight back with the help of the West, but Germany and France loved Putin, so they split off from the US and pressured Ukraine into signing a new ceasefire agreement with Russia under similar terms a few months later in early 2015. Russia once again agreed, but this time they held true to their word because the EU powers basically legitimatized Russia’s claim that the frontlines are the new borders.
Not even a decade later in 2022, Russia amassed the largest troop build up in Europe in decades and launched the largest and most brutal invasion in the continent since WWII… in blatant violation of their previous agreements. The invasion is unprovoked and is done purely for the imperial ambitions of Putin. He wants reestablish the borders of the Soviet Union and the glory of the Russian empire through military might.
So now Ukraine has spent over 3 decades trying to use diplomacy, they have tried the most extreme and clever political tactics, they have rallied the West to turn Russian into an economic and political pariah in the world, they have use the UN and other global institutions to apply pressure… yet here we are. Four years later of nonstop war, and millions of Ukrainians displaced, hundreds of their settlements are razed, 1/5 of their country is still occupied, a million of their young men are killed or wounded, and their economy is in shambles. The only thing stopping them from complete annihilation as a nation is their military.
Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that the Ukrainians are evil for using their military to defend themselves? Are you seriously going to try to wag your finger about Ukrainians needing to try other avenues? Are you seriously going to tell Ukrainians to hit back against Russia who wants to genocide them? You would have to a complete clown to do that. There’s no way you can see what’s happening there and think that their military and their use of it is not justified.
Diplomacy? My sweet summer child, that only works for a little while. How many wars have happened within just your own teenage lifetime where diplomacy was used to prevent it, but a war was fought anyways?
The simplest way to rebuke you is to quite frankly say to you that we are all still chimps with nukes.
If you honestly and truly believe that societies that have collected into nationalistic/tribalistic cultures as a whole could stop fighting each other, then I would say that you are ridiculously naive and ignorant. Literally for the entire of human history there have been people and entire cultural movements to foster peace amongst us all using diplomacy, for at least ten thousand fucking years, and people still want to kill each other.
The wealthy and powerful already know this and always/everywhere they wall themselves in away from society as a whole and protect themselves, then pay for protection using the same violence you are against using; we call them oligarchs.
The 21st century is considered to be one of the most peaceful times in human history. That’s indeed due to international cooperation efforts, i.e., diplomacy.
Get your facts straight next time you climb on a high horse to make condescending comments.
Most people don’t understand the concept of the industrial military complex. There is only one way forward to end the madness and that is to dismantle this system permanently.
You are not going to be able to stop this with a game of whack a mole. I am not a fan of a violent solution, but if done it would have to be universal all at once since this concept has already spread to every nation in the world.
Without a doubt an industry that can only grow from death and destruction is inherently a threat to human life. Couple that with fascism and you have a government that conspires with corporations to engaged in wars of opportunity for profit. A closed loop of human destruction that grows like a cancer.
I think the real solution is just getting the wealthy to dismantle the system. It sounds kind of silly and simple, but they are the only ones with the power to actually change anything at this point in a meaningful way.
I am not sure I agree with this. Even if the threat of violence is effective I am not sure it is the correct thing to do. I think we can both agree there may be solutions we haven’t even thought of yet.
Killing people is bad and war is bad and the military is evil and the only way to stop it is to use the military to do a war and kill people.
It’s not though.
So what then? Everyone hug and get along? You understand there’s way too many aggressively stupid people out there that believe profoundly idiotic shit that peace will never be a thing long beyond the sun itself aging into a supernova.
You focus too much on physical aggression to fight physical aggression.
Ever heard of diplomacy? Of political, economic, industrial pressure? What about all the wars that were prevented due to clever people making some clever moves that did not involve murder on a systematic scale.
Furthermore, we’ve spent an incredible amount of resources on perfectioning killing each other, and barely on exploring ways to wage war without killing.
There are times where none of this works, then what?
Take Ukraine for example. They gained their independence peacefully and democratically. After their independence, their talented diplomats and leaders made the unpredencted move to diplomatically negotiate a deal with their former oppressors to give up their entire nuclear arsenal in exchange for a promise of peace, and they even leveraged Western powers to serve as mediators and witnesses to showcase that their intentions genuine to the world. Russia signed the agreement with a smile, and then on to invade annex Crimea in 2014 as well as start the war in Donbass in 2014 in complete violation of the agreement.
The West saw this violation as an insult against their goodwill and their diplomacy as well as a challenge to their power so they backed Ukraine and applied severe political and economic sanctions on Russia. This forced Russia to come to the negotiation table in September of that year where they, again, promised to cease all hostilities against Ukraine if Ukraine agreed to freeze the conflict on the current frontlines. Ukraine agreed and the ceasefire was violated by Russia immediately.
At that point, Ukraine wanted to fight back with the help of the West, but Germany and France loved Putin, so they split off from the US and pressured Ukraine into signing a new ceasefire agreement with Russia under similar terms a few months later in early 2015. Russia once again agreed, but this time they held true to their word because the EU powers basically legitimatized Russia’s claim that the frontlines are the new borders.
Not even a decade later in 2022, Russia amassed the largest troop build up in Europe in decades and launched the largest and most brutal invasion in the continent since WWII… in blatant violation of their previous agreements. The invasion is unprovoked and is done purely for the imperial ambitions of Putin. He wants reestablish the borders of the Soviet Union and the glory of the Russian empire through military might.
So now Ukraine has spent over 3 decades trying to use diplomacy, they have tried the most extreme and clever political tactics, they have rallied the West to turn Russian into an economic and political pariah in the world, they have use the UN and other global institutions to apply pressure… yet here we are. Four years later of nonstop war, and millions of Ukrainians displaced, hundreds of their settlements are razed, 1/5 of their country is still occupied, a million of their young men are killed or wounded, and their economy is in shambles. The only thing stopping them from complete annihilation as a nation is their military.
Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that the Ukrainians are evil for using their military to defend themselves? Are you seriously going to try to wag your finger about Ukrainians needing to try other avenues? Are you seriously going to tell Ukrainians to hit back against Russia who wants to genocide them? You would have to a complete clown to do that. There’s no way you can see what’s happening there and think that their military and their use of it is not justified.
Diplomacy? My sweet summer child, that only works for a little while. How many wars have happened within just your own teenage lifetime where diplomacy was used to prevent it, but a war was fought anyways?
The simplest way to rebuke you is to quite frankly say to you that we are all still chimps with nukes.
If you honestly and truly believe that societies that have collected into nationalistic/tribalistic cultures as a whole could stop fighting each other, then I would say that you are ridiculously naive and ignorant. Literally for the entire of human history there have been people and entire cultural movements to foster peace amongst us all using diplomacy, for at least ten thousand fucking years, and people still want to kill each other.
The wealthy and powerful already know this and always/everywhere they wall themselves in away from society as a whole and protect themselves, then pay for protection using the same violence you are against using; we call them oligarchs.
The 21st century is considered to be one of the most peaceful times in human history. That’s indeed due to international cooperation efforts, i.e., diplomacy.
Get your facts straight next time you climb on a high horse to make condescending comments.
You’re really not gonna be able to talk me out of believing militaries are evil without more than that.
I’m not talking you out of “militaries are evil”. I just want to point out that war and therefore killing people is not the only option.
I mean killing people is bad.
Yes.
Most people don’t understand the concept of the industrial military complex. There is only one way forward to end the madness and that is to dismantle this system permanently.
Amen. But unfortunately, a lot of that dismantling will have to be done at gunpoint.
You are not going to be able to stop this with a game of whack a mole. I am not a fan of a violent solution, but if done it would have to be universal all at once since this concept has already spread to every nation in the world.
Without a doubt an industry that can only grow from death and destruction is inherently a threat to human life. Couple that with fascism and you have a government that conspires with corporations to engaged in wars of opportunity for profit. A closed loop of human destruction that grows like a cancer.
I think the real solution is just getting the wealthy to dismantle the system. It sounds kind of silly and simple, but they are the only ones with the power to actually change anything at this point in a meaningful way.
Absolutely. But the rich will only dismantle the system under threat of violence.
I am not sure I agree with this. Even if the threat of violence is effective I am not sure it is the correct thing to do. I think we can both agree there may be solutions we haven’t even thought of yet.
It is manifestly not the correct thing to do. Coercing people under threat of violence is an inherently evil act.
And I fervently hope there is some other solution, but humanity has had many thousands of years to think of one, and none is forthcoming.