cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396125
Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
She had so many chances to make this election easier. Could have had a Palestinian talk during the DNC, and that would have likely changed this story.
You’d have to be an idiot to make another countries conflict an election issue, when neither candidate supports your side. The fact that neither candidate is pro Palestine, it’s a moot point in terms of the election
You’d have to be an idiot to make another countries conflict an election issue
apply this to Ukraine :)
Is this a joke? This genocide is as much our “conflict” as it is Israel’s, given that Israel wouldn’t be able to do what it’s doing without massive US financial, materiel, and political support. It’s absolutely an election issue. You can say it’s not ’till the cows come home, but uncommitted is as real as death & taxes.
So, a conflict where USA supply weapons and all other manners of support used for open genocide (btw illegally, US law declare US need to stop in such case, but Blinken and co blocked it) and is even sending US soldiers to serve as a missile bait, isn’t an issue for US voters according to you?
Nice democracy you think they should have there.
Cant blame them, Biden\Harris are literally sending Israel the bombs.
Yeah but if you don’t vote Kamala, Trump will hurt Palestinians even harder and it will be your fault 🤡
And Trump will just skip the middleman and bomb Gaza and Palestine himself. You’re talking about the guy who moved the embassy to Jerusalem, after all.
Not just in Michigan ;)
I don’t get this. 3rd party will never win. Ever. There are two real options. Vote for the one that offers the best outcome for you. Not doing that is accepting that you are ok with the worst of the two, because you had a chance to keep them out of office and choose not to.
I don’t get this. 3rd party will never win. Ever. There are two real options.
People are voting third party because you believe there are only 2 real options.
Vote for the one that offers the best outcome for you.
Gotcha, we should vote for Claudia De La Crúz.
Not doing that is accepting that you are ok with the worst of the two, because you had a chance to keep them out of office and choose not to.
Both Trump and Harris are the worst options, that’s why we are going against them.
How is voting for her the best option. Literally all she can do is benefit the Republicans by pulling votes from the Dems. Hell, in Georgia they’ve literally ruled that votes for her won’t be counted even though she’s on the ballot.
Her winning the US Presidential election is less-likely than winning the power all 25 consecutive times by finding the winning ticket on the ground at random truck stops in Malaysia.
context matters. you have no idea what state many people live in. I, for example, live in a reliably blue stronghold. harris will win no matter how I vote. so I don’t vote for democrats when when there is a better option on the ballot.
There is no value in voting for a party that doesn’t support my values/interests. I personally don’t like many of de la cruz’s policies, they are poorly constructed, however I think she likely has a better moral compass and backbone than harris does. I’m giving harris until the end of the week to fix her positions on khan and ideally irsael, but i doubt she will so she wont be getting my vote.
I personally don’t like many of de la cruz’s policies, they are poorly constructed
Which policies do you believe are poorly constructed?
literally every single one she listed… she’s certainly not a unifying figure that socialism needs. she isnt dog whistling shes full throat fog horning and poorly.
The 100 largest corporations in America should be seized from their billionaire owners and turned into public property.
good luck. that’ll take years and won’t fly for a lot of people. nor will it fix the problem. all its doing is triggering an immediate immune response from the unthinking masses. Nor does it address daily issues working american’s are experiencing. I understand what shes going for, but she doesn’t know how to accomplish it effectively.
Overthrow the Dictatorship of the Rich — Build a Democracy That Serves the Working Class
sigh… same problem as above. removing the FBI and NSA will have little to no material impact on working americans.
End the Rule of Money and Lock Up the Corrupt Elite
yeah okay. again get what shes going for but non of that can be accomplished without a supportive congress. What to over throw the system? great I’m right there with you. but have an actual workable plan.
End All U.S. Aid to Apartheid Israel. End the Genocide and Free Palestine & Cut the Military Budget by 90% — Peace, Not War with China & Russia!
sigh. so completely cripple our economy, and trade one relatively friendly genocidal country for two unfriendly genocidal countries. sounds like a great plan.
End the war on black america.
sigh reparations, i get it i really do. but its just another aspect of the race war and sadly black americans are not yet populous enough to pull it off. could just as easily have said ‘build a social safety net to support working americans’
Defend Women’s rights, full equality for lgbtq people
again great cause, but lacks the acume to identify the levers to pull to make it a reality.
Save the planet from capitalism
sigh. again just isolating herself from many american’s who believe in capitalism.
So you just don’t like Socialism, I guess?
incorrect, Im a socialist. she just doesn’t know how to be effective at getting the change we all desire; and I doubt she’ll be good as a president. shes hurt and angry and lashing out. she should run locally for a governor position and prove she knows how to develop and build worker run cooperatives before trying her hand at the national stage.
the first step is following khan by breaking non-competes, then provide support and resources for worker run organizations.
Both parties are beholden to Israel and the power of AIPAC
Other way around. Both parties support Israel because Israel helps secure the Petro-Dollar, by which the US dominates the Global South with predatory IMF loans.
Context:
- I am not an american, so there may be some missing knowledge for me about the american electoral system.
- I abhor Israel’s genocide in Gaza, and I abhor the biden administration’s support of (and Harris’ seeming continued support of) the genocide.
- My understanding is that Trump is just as, if not more supportive of the genocide in Gaza, and on top of this has his sights on doing some truly terrible things in the US re: minorities, trans rights, etc
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn’t change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil than the current status quo. So if you’re an american voter, you obviously can’t let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a “lesser of the two evils” thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
It’s more of a difference in practical values. At what point does the “lesser evil” itself become intolerable evil? Some people insist that you should vote for Hitler over 101% Hitler, that there is no intolerable level as long as there is a miniscule difference. Others have firm red lines in the sand, like genocide, where they advocate for abandoning them and pushing as hard as you can, even advocating for moves outside the electoral system like revolution.
So to put this in more practical terms, one would neither vote for Hitler or 101% Hitler, and instead vote for The Other Person who Isn’t Much Hitler At All, or abstain or something, and protest and take action in other ways?
The “correct” answer is to vote for “Not Hitler” and join a revolutionary org, such as FRSO or PSL in the US.
Your understanding is solid for not being an American. You’re not missing anything substantial-- people who are voting 3rd party think that the “dems need to learn” and that the dems can’t do whatever they want so their vote is supposed to be a punishment. But as you point out that if they really cared about this issue then they would vote for Harris because trump will do worse on this issue and all around. The time to make changes to our political system is not when you vote for president, but in the years leading up to that.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons. It sucks that our political system is what it is but if you knowingly vote for anything other than the candidate promising not-fascism, then you are supporting fascism.
I just hope enough democrats understand this. I’m not happy with gaza either but our country is still recovering from the first shit show presidency of Trump, and fascists are closely watching this election.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons
incorrect you’re missing context of reliably blue states. I most certainly dont need to vote for democrats and can essentially do what I want w/ respect to the presidential ticket.
All the nonsense from the liberal idiots in the democratic party miss this critical contextual bit of information. I happily vote 3rd party whenever there is one that aligns more closely with my goals. its just rare one does; because it simply doesn’t matter in my state for the outcome.
My ballot typically goes:
- 3rd party for pres
- dem/independents for most local positions
all this blue no matter who are just brain dead lunacy by the party is essentially: The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final and most essential command.
Hopefully some day we’ll be able to have reasonable conversations about the toxicity of the democratic party but we just are not there yet and unfortunately the Ukrainians and Palestinians are paying the price in blood and harris doesnt have the backbone to challenge her corporate owners. Biden lost my support when he broke the train union strike. I believe he and harris would have broken the port workers strike as well if it wasn’t a month before the election.
things that prevent me from voting for harris:
- wont enforce the leahy laws with israel. israel absolutely does have a right to defend itself, it doesn’t have a right to be supported by the US tax payers. if the MIC wants money there is a far more moral war going on we can increase support for. (HUGE red flag)
- wont commit to keeping Ms khan. (HUGE red flag)
- i don’t trust her w/ respect to union support. I believe she’ll break unions just like biden did. which is why he lost my support.
- her continuous attempts to gaslight the american people over biden’s mental decline makes her untrustworthy as an individual.
until then I’ll continue advocating for and campaigning for election reform and primarying useless democrats. She could probably swing my vote if she commits to khan and never breaking a strike as those are important to the health of our country and economy but at this point its clear she wont shift.
I’m glad you took one sentence out of context to tell me why youre not a moron. Good for you… the context of the article is a swing state. While your ticket may not matter, in your opinion, telling this to other people is in direct support for facism. Gtfo
Edit: oh and i missed that its a 2 day account only commenting on this shit. Say hello to Russia for me and welcome to my block list
While your ticket may not matter, in your opinion, telling this to other people is in direct support for facism. Gtfo
Just vote for my team bro 🤡
you’re upset I deconstructed your entire position in a couple of paragraphs and think burying your head in the sand will resolve the obvious problems with your positions. (hint: they won’t)
learn how to influence your politicians. voting for them when they dont support your interests doesn’t work. being afraid of their opposition doesn’t work. What have you done to fix FPTP voting issues? What have you done to prevent genocides?
I only quoted a single sentence you’re entire post was predicated on it. you’re the only moron because you lack contextual awareness; unlike the Palestinians in swing states. Good on them and I wish them the best of luck, I’m rooting for them and emailing my congress critters so they know that harris doesnt have my support is she continues her israel non-sense and issues with khan.
edit: seems like the pressure is working now harris just needs to come out and say she’ll continue the enforcement of leahy and a cessation of hostilities. keep up the good work people few days left.
Oh they’re really gonna love how Trump handles Arabs
Strawmen belong in fields, not comment sections.
Also: does every ml user have an allergy to pragmatic problem solving?
You think they’re voting for trump? If so, you’re even dumber than you think they are
I mean, it’s not like there’s any other viable candidate. I don’t like the two party system but it’s what we have and by voting any other way than Harris, it gives advantage to Trump.
Her shitty policies and attitude toward the genocide of people in the Levant is what’s giving trump an advantage!
Her shitty attitude towards people calling on her not to support the genocide is what’s giving trump an advantage.
She had it in the bag when she called him weird but you can always rely on a democrat to steal defeat from the jaws of victory!
And you know for sure that democrats are going to turn on minorities and leftists once she loses the election rather than face up to the fact that they did everything themselves to avoid winning it.
This is question-begging a number of critical elements, e.g. that the “rafts” cannot be influenced by “passenger” input, and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
We can do it too:
You’re in a runaway train accelerating toward a cliff and the break only really stops acceleration, it doesn’t decelerate. You can sit in the engine room and hold down the break, and you’ll live longer, but you aren’t changing the fundamental dynamic of the situation, which ends in your eventual death. Conversely, you can jump off the train, surely injuring yourself, possibly crippling yourself, maybe even killing yourself, but it’s the only potential way to change the dynamic of being doomed to fall off the cliff.
Does this prove anything? No, it’s just a model of how some people think of the problem, not an argument. It would be really obnoxious and disingenuous to present it as an argument.
Maybe we should see if there’s any point of agreement, one step at a time.
Do you agree that either the Dem or Rep nominee will be the next president?
When I said:
and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
This was me saying “It frames things as though losing the election means that all is lost and there won’t be future elections.”
As I’m pretty sure I explained to you an hour ago in another thread, I think it’s an acceptable loss for the Democrats to lose an election to put pressure on them to change or else to establish that they are more loyal to the US project of Israel than they are to trying to win elections or do what voters want or anything like that.
I don’t proactively want Trump to win, but I find it totally acceptable since what sets him apart from other Republicans is not that he is especially fascist in the substance of what he is likely to do. It might actually be possible to browbeat me if we had a Tom “throne of Chinese skulls” Cotton or someone as the nominee, he actually represents something that could be totalizing to me, but Trump is just kind of a deranged grifter and Vance is a more even-keel grifter.
So to save us both time, no, I don’t think we agree on any points. I wasn’t commenting toward that end, I merely wanted to say that the comic is unhelpful.
Angry with the Biden administration – and, by extension, Kamala Harris – for its support for Israel, Arab Americans may be willing to overlook Trump’s history of closeness with Israel’s hard-right leaders.
So, these individuals could be described as the common clay of the new West?
You see no difference between people put off by settler-colonial genocide and… settler colonists? What?
yeah man, denigrate them more, that’ll surely get them on your side! maybe a touch more smug condescension? anything except engaging with their concerns, of course.
I don’t want them on my side. I’m not running for office, and they’re shitty, stupid people.
(your mask is slipping)
Trump supporters? Yeah, I stand by it.
I call conservatives dumb too.
These people aren’t special. Just a different kind of dumb.
Similar in the way they vote against their own interests.
Great so now we can have a more certain Trump presidency. Why limit yourself to just one genocide when you can have this guy in power here too:
“How about allowing people to come to an open border, 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States. You know now a murder, I believe this, it’s in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now,”
Biden already started the Lebanon genocide. You’re going to need to up that Trump talking point to three genocides.
Here’s a talking point for you, but from the Republican party’s policy platform:
DEPORT PRO-HAMAS RADICALS AND MAKE OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SAFE AND PATRIOTIC AGAIN
By “pro-Hamas” they mean all the free Palestine protestors.
Is that the third or the fourth genocide?
Okay, but, abandon her for whom exactly? Just not vote? Vote 3rd party? I am not going to say Harris is perfect, but this is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Third Party, tyically, that’s what most anti-genocide groups are advocating for.
What third party? David Duke just endorsed Jill Stein.
Any anti-genocide candidate, Claudia De La Crúz is best but Jill Stein is often pushed as an alternative.
It’s important to note that Duke said he supports Stein because Stein is against funding Israel, and David Duke hates Jewish people, he doesn’t care about genocide. He supported Trump in 2016 and 2020 but said Trump is too supportive of Israel for 2024.
You mean the same Jill Stein that was endorsed by former KKK leader, seems like a solid choice…
Dick Cheney endorsed Kamala.
Neither of these facts alone necessarily implicate the candidates. You really have to consider the context. Being endorsed by someone hardly means you keep their company.
This group is the single greatest gift to the 2024 trump presidency and he doesn’t know it yet!
Harris? I agree, she’s torpedoing a very easy campaign.
At least trump will be a great ally to Palestinians!
Course not, the genocidal US Empire needs to be overthrown. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.
