Liberalism is when you believe in voting against fascism to lessen the burdens on engaging in actual leftist action, I guess.
Extremely dire turbolib statement here, RIP
Removed by mod
Major PTB and hypocrisy. Accelerationists/anti-electoralists are fucking LARPer anarchists, at best, who buy into the same sort of political religion that tankies do. Refusing to use any tools at ones disposal to to stop fascists is pure performative bullshit. Being not just willing but enthusiastic about sacrificing vulnerable people on the altar of socio-political changes that have never in history come from such acts is amoral and in direct conflict with attempting to improve the human condition and establish any sustainable anarchic society.
And before they pile on and say “oh but liberal democracy is fundamentally unjust”, well, the world isn’t fucking black and white. Making lives worse, by all historical data, just increases human suffering. Want to take to the streets and do some direct action and use other tools of political change? Do it. If you’re going to talk the talk, walking the fucking walk or shut the fuck up with the performative claims of moral superiority because all evidence shows that you have done nothing to assuage human suffering but opened the door for those who want to cause more of it.
Also, banning someone for dissent in a comm apparently dedicated to anarchism? That is not behavior in line with anarchic organization and is pure abuse of power over others to give oneself an artificially louder voice. Best to hang up that mod jacket until you learn to stop being a fucking poser.
ETA: Sorry for the aggressive tone but I’m pretty tired of people being too far up themselves to care about how their political actions effect others and even more tired of faux anarchists abusing their power to silence others’ voices.
Don’t feel too bad, I’ve run into this shit in real life while trying to get leftists into action. Not even voting, but doing direct things. The idea then was that any action not tearing down the establishment was wasted.
My response? Great to fucking hear that, let’s do it. Their response? Leave, you fucking plant.
People are fucking morons.
I agree with the last sentence. Its a pile of shit to get anything done in this world that is not fucking it up further.
But here we are. I cook for the people, i write software for them, i help them get their computers set up. Fucking up capitalfashism one thing at a time.
Good luck on your journey.
Some people just want to LARP to make themselves feel good. The boring - or conversely, dangerous - aspects of pushing forward change don’t interest them.
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
Citation needed for… someone… recounting their experiences in a real-life situation
… do you know what a citation is
Citation: the world ;)
This community is anarchist-flavored. Reactionary takes won’t be tolerated.
and
This is an anarchist comm. You don’t have to be an anarchist to post, but you should at least understand what anarchism actually is. We’re not here to educate you.
But I think I should make the rules more explicit about liberal electoralism brainrot.
EDIT:
Here’s a more explicit rule for you. but as always the FAFO is in effect for the next time you think something is not explicit enough.
No shaming people for being anti-electoralism. This should be obvious from the above point but apparently we need to make it obvious to the turbolibs who can’t control themselves. You have the rest of lemmy to moralize.
- Goes inside an anarchist space
- Calls all anarchists stupid for not voting for fascists
- Gets banned for breaking the rules
Yep, it’s a PugJesus moment. “Vaguely leftist”.
So much for “I don’t get a thrill out of debates.” I wonder how long PJ will complain about db0 like he did with blahaj.
Gets banned for breaking the rules
As is pointed out, no rules were broken, but I guess that’s a level of reading comprehension above where you usually operate.
So much for “I don’t get a thrill out of debates.”
Literally already clarified this for you, but I understand that comprehension in general isn’t your strong suit.
No shaming people for being anti-electoralism. This should be obvious from the above point but apparently we need to make it obvious to the turbolibs who can’t control themselves. You have the rest of lemmy to moralize.
Love this!
I figured you might come in here with some well mannered annihilation of op. Pleasure to read it. Thank you for your service.
“Harm reduction is reactionary” and “If you believe in harm reduction, you don’t understand what anarchism is”.
Classic.
At least now you’ve added an actual rule, instead of just banning people for hurting your feelings by [checks notes] arguing that inaction against fascism isn’t morally acceptable.
Imagine believing that voting for the people who brought us fascism (aka fascists) is “harm reduction”.
Peak lib delusions.
Of course, the lives of marginalized groups don’t matter to ‘anarchist’ LARPers. Harm reduction is unacceptable because it doesn’t lead to a good society in and of itself. Who cares if a few million minorities more or less suffer and die?
What’s with “‘anarchist’ LARPers”, do you seriously believe that not voting for fascists is something anarchists can’t do? Everyone else said it before, it’s completely redundant for me to say it again, but your logic has absolutely zero ground.
What’s with “‘anarchist’ LARPers”, do you seriously believe that not voting for fascists is something anarchists can’t do?
Saying that “harm reduction”, itself originating in anarchist thought, is entirely contrary to anarchists, seems a rather odd thing for a ‘serious’ anarchist to assert.
But hey, don’t let me interrupt the LARP. There are minorities to kill, after all.
And promoting “harm reduction” isn’t promoting cutting corners, and not standing up against fascism, as that isn’t anarchist at all. That’s actually something a turbolib would say.
And the fact you like to say that being against these things is killing minorities is the cherry on top for me. Like yes, standing against Zionist liberals who advocate for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people is something the evil anarchist LARPers who want to kill minorities do.
And promoting “harm reduction” isn’t promoting cutting corners, and not standing up against fascism, as that isn’t anarchist at all. That’s actually something a turbolib would say.
Christ.
Thanks for demonstrating the exact kind of idiocy I was protesting against, wherein harm reduction is suddenly not-anarchist despite being deeply rooted in and originating in anarchist thought and practice, both present and historically. Enjoy your LARP.
And the fact you like to say that being against these things is killing minorities is the cherry on top for me. Like yes, standing against Zionist liberals who advocate for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people is something the evil anarchist LARPers who want to kill minorities do.
Good job standing up against the Zionists by making sure the strongest Zionist supporter in the race got into power. I’m sure you’ve saved countless Palestinians with your saintly sacrifice of the lives of literal millions of impoverished folk around the world, Palestinians under Israeli occupation, LGBT Americans, and god knows how many other disadvantaged groups in this country.
Give yourself a round of applause.
It’s okay. I like your turbolib ways. Keep posting you bodacious bastard.
Apparently being anticapitalist isn’t enough anymore. Only opposition to casting a ballot for any reason can absolve one of the taint of Liberalism™.
Though that still doesn’t explain what rule I was actually banned for supposedly violating.
Ok
Here I think is their rule:
They kicked you for arguing too much.
Honestly, the rest of the comment section ALSO should have been booted off that was the case, but you were the one blocking the
echoesFung Shui.I found it most enlightening that voting is not the answer, unless you are voting for anarchism.
Just remember, structure and the exercise of power is violence, so listen to the mods and take your three day ban 🙃
I try to leave some leeway for people to argue, but I will admit I was considering locking the whole thread.
Given the guidelines, that may have been more fair.
that’s a good guess. I’d like to see the post that started this
You can click on a person’s name then scroll through their history.
True, but it’s still nice when there’s an easy link. Thanks for doing it for the rest of us here. I wish people would include it in the post more. I like to see the context for myself, not just descriptions of it.
Yeah, that line of thinking can absolve my taint.
Pretty sure the propaganda is liberals are super evil, vote for the lesser of 2 evils. If you are liberal, you should boycott the vote. That’s how America got the way it is. If you like being controlled people, be sure to follow the propaganda.
I didn’t read the rules because they are made up anyway. If you give me a minute, I can try playing devil’s advocate.
Apparently being anticapitalist isn’t enough anymore.
The German SDP were anticapitalist too. It has never been enough. But anarchists have at least learned that lesson
The German SDP were anticapitalist too. It has never been enough. But anarchists have at least learned that lesson
So fucking glad that we’re at the point where literally allowing Hitler into power is anarchist praxis to show ‘libs’ like the fucking SDP what for, Jesus fucking Christ.
Imagine believing that anarchists let hitler into power and not the the exact same liberal politicians that you bow down to and that put Trump in power…
Imagine believing that anarchists let hitler into power and not the the exact same liberal politicians that you bow down to, that put Trump in power…
Imagine believing that the only non-KDP resistance to the Nazis isn’t ‘good enough’ to support against the literal fucking Nazis because ‘harm reduction is a myth’.
Anything to be a useful idiot for fascists, I guess.
Disengage
morally
smh.
voting against fascism
LOL YDI. Liberalism works in cooperation with fascism. All of your politician heroes are working with fascists right now. They’re in the same buildings doing the same things. This whole “voting against fascism” when you’re talking about a genocidal prosecutor is gross AF.
You only commented once there?
I wonder why Pug hasn’t responded with his relevant comments after being asked.
crickets.
Maybe someday Pug will at least try to follow comm rules. Until then, Crickets.
Literally quoted and pointed out that I hadn’t broken any comm rules, but I guess that’s less important than your weird beef with me.
If you think that I have some ‘turbolib’ take in there that doesn’t boil down to “harm reduction is mandatory”, please, go ahead and quote me.
Sorry for not quoting the entirety of my comment history in the OP, lmao.
PTB
Despite this being one of the things i disagree with Pug on, voting for Kamala Harris was objectively the correct choice last election.
The way we escape the Duopoly is to abandon it, but there were no viable 3rd party choices.
Also none of what I said so far can justify the moderation decisions made. Censoring this kind of speech is a bad look for the anarcho-communist community.
Despite this being one of the things i disagree with Pug on, voting for Kamala Harris was objectively the correct choice last election.
What is dangerous about Pug’s behavior here is even though myself and others have repeatedly provided examples for how prominent leftists and leftists in general advocated voting for Kamala Harris, if not enthusiastically to others every single one I know explained in clear terms why even though they didn’t really like Kamala and were against the Palestinian Genocide Kamala refused to acknowledge or do anything about differently than Biden (at least she wouldn’t give any serious indication of it in her campaign… like at all… zero percent)… and yet Pug Jesus spitfires memes and comments that keep trying to portray leftism as this death cult obsessed with intellectual purity.
No, Pug is in denial about the cruelty of their own assumptions that they didn’t realize until it was too late, and I am tired of them bringing the rest of us down for it and throwing mud on leftism in general in the US.
Either the protest vote was powerless and doomed to fail in the beginning or it was the dues ex machina that thwarted the wonders of neoliberalism that were just about to be bestowed upon us until we sinned… it is an emotionally compelling story and that is why it is scary… because it isn’t supported by the evidence, at all.
I think the thing a lot of people are missing is that abandoning the duopoly, or any other major political reform, is NOT a “just vote in this one election bro I swear” deal. These things take time. Sometimes a lot of time. And until that time where it happens, you need to spend each election thinking “how is this going to affect progress towards our goal”. And allowing trump to win did nothing but push us closer to having a republican monopoly. See all those news articles of local government republicans in power suddenly starting to host town hall meetings that are republican only.
I don’t like him or want him in charge, but if Trump wasn’t elected in 2024 then he would have been in 2028.
The upside is trump getting elected probably spurs more apathetic people to get involved than continuing to slowly boil the frog.
Same thing happened after 2016, the Republicans got fucked in the midterms.
Its hard to not sound accelerationist, but yes. If the sword of damocles isnt going away, and things will jot improve in the meantime; go for it.
He might be dead due to health problems by then though.
Im not willing to bet that will stop him winning elections.
Delacruz was electable, if we voted for her.
I’m gonna be honest this is my first time hearing that name
her full name was claudia de la cruz she was was a candidate of the PSL and got 160k votes
Third party presidential candidate from… I firget which party, the kinda-socialistish one i think. I heard someone responding to a lib saying we should have fallen in line behind their ghoul with turning the argument around, and stole the fuck out of it. Its a great reminder that ‘unity’ does not mean ‘do whatever the libs want at all times’.
Oh yeah deltarune has been great, just dropped this week!
In 2 years, when ICE will be going door to door doing blatant curb stomps, pug Jesus is still going to be whining about tankies not voting for genocide, as he posts bizarre memes about the good old days of the Union beating the confederates. Absolutely bizarre.
PJ will say that its actually people being on lemmy why Trump is in power today, without a hint of irony.
In 2 years, when ICE will be going door to door doing blatant curb stomps, pug Jesus is still going to be whining about tankies not voting for genocide,
“Golly gee, I wonder why those evil LIBS would be complaining about the results of letting a fascist win in an election, just because those fascists are doing blatantly fascist things???”
Truly inexplicable. Don’t worry, though, in 2 years, there’s a very non-zero chance I’ll be dead, and you can pat your fellow LARPers on the back for successfully killing so many marginalized groups without interruption.
“fellow LARPers… killing so many marginalized groups”
I’m sorry we weren’t so aware of the evil “‘anarchist LARPers” killing so many minorities for *checks paper* not cutting corners for liberals who actively are against many implied minorities. I get I’m beating a dead horse, but outside any political context and purely logically, this still makes zero sense.
I’m sorry we weren’t so aware of the evil “‘anarchist LARPers” killing so many minorities for checks paper not cutting corners for liberals who actively are against many implied minorities. I get I’m beating a dead horse, but outside any political context and purely logically, this still makes zero sense.
“not cutting corners for liberals”
What corners are cut by casting a vote, again?
Like, this isn’t me saying “ANARCHISTS ARE BAD FOR MUTUAL AID” or “ANARCHISTS CAN’T CRITICIZE LIBERALS”
This was me arguing that harm reduction is not morally optionally, and then getting banned from an anarchist comm for it - with the justification, as mentioned by DB0, that ‘harm reduction’ was itself inherently reactionary and anti-anarchist, despite harm reduction being an anarchist concept to begin with.
What corners are cut by casting a vote, again?
A lot. A leftcom told me this once:
An anarchist voting for liberals is a liberal in practice.
Voting for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people is not good. This isn’t a “lesser evil” thing, this is supporting a genocide we can both agree with. In Nazi Germany, there is no corner to be cut by not being against Nazi Germany, because that’s genocide. The same can be said for voting for liberals, what is the difference between you and a Zionist liberal if you’re voting and advocating for them? Sure, you may think differently and know that the Palestinian people are being genocided, however you still support the people who do that.
I’m not gonna hold and punches, you’re a liberal in practice. Read theory as much as you want, as long as you vote for genocide, you vote for genocide.
A lot. A leftcom told me this once:
An anarchist voting for liberals is a liberal in practice.
Thank you, that explains so much. /s
Voting for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people is not good.
Cool. Deciding that you’d prefer more support to go to genocidaires, instead of less support, is not good. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it’s much more clearly horrific than whatever weird spiritualist view of the ballot box you have.
This isn’t a “lesser evil” thing, this is supporting a genocide we can both agree with. In Nazi Germany, there is no corner to be cut by not being against Nazi Germany, because that’s genocide. The same can be said for voting for liberals
This is, and I mean this in the most literal sense, incoherent.
This is… incoherent.
Apologies if it is, I’m sleep deprived and just spitting my thoughts about this while getting a good chuckle.
What I mean is in the same way you cannot be on the side of the Nazis in the 1940s, you cannot be on the side of Israel and supporting the Zionist cause.
As previously stated, I won’t engage in bad faith arguments like
But a vote not for Kamala is a vote for Trump!
Once again, sleep well.
What I mean is in the same way you cannot be on the side of the Nazis in the 1940s, you cannot be on the side of Israel and supporting the Zionist cause.
I’m not on the side of Israel and supporting the Zionist cause. But when there are two options, you pick the less bad of the two. It’s not fucking rocket science.
The Soviets in WW2 were committing genocide. Yet the question of winning the Second World War depended on cooperation with the Soviets.
With the same mindset that supporting literal genocidaires - the Soviets - was necessary to stop a worse outcome - the Nazis - so too was this past election. We had our choice of supporting the liberal coalition candidate, or the fascist coalition candidate. And all too many people decided they’d sooner see the Nazis win than side with genocidaires - despite the fact that siding ‘against’ the genocidaires did nothing to actually reduce the genocide being done - and, in fact, actually intensified the genocide you were supposedly protesting against.
Harm reduction is an explicit rejection of the idea that, in a tight situation, supporting the less-bad option is dedication to their cause. It is only supporting the less-bad option being the one to result. A vote takes, for most, an hour of your time, twice every two years. Most people spend more time fucking jacking off. If that’s too much strain for you to save the lives of literal millions, you’re a fucking LARPer, not someone who’s interested in the welfare of marginalized groups oppressed by state power.
But if you’re more interested in spiritualist, self-centered interpretations of politics, rather than political action as a way of improving lives and reducing harm, well, that kind of LARPers mindset is naturally geared against that very simple idea that a vote isn’t a love letter. Who cares about outcomes? You have to keep your internal karma meter positive, or some stupid shit like that.
As previously stated, I won’t engage in bad faith arguments like
But a vote not for Kamala is a vote for Trump!
Sorry that you think inaction in support of the worse option is absolution?
fellow LARPers on the back for successfully killing so many marginalized groups without interruption.
Ah yes, like the Arab and Muslim Americans in Dearborn who decided they wouldn’t vote for a candidate who promised to kill their brothers and sisters in Lebanon with the utmost lethality. These people are the ones who are killing marginalized groups. Sure.
God, the sick and twisted knots libs can twist themselves into trying to explain how fascism takes rise. I give you 1 year before youre calling ICE on your Muslim and Arab “tankie” neighbors.
Ah yes, like the Arab and Muslim Americans in Dearborn who decided they wouldn’t vote for a candidate who promised to kill their brothers and sisters in Lebanon with the utmost lethality. These people are the ones who are killing marginalized groups. Sure.
Yes, actions have consequences, sorry that you think that they don’t?
God, the sick and twisted knots libs can twist themselves into trying to explain how fascism takes rise. I give you 1 year before youre calling ICE on your Muslim and Arab “tankie” neighbors.
“We should have stopped the no-brakes-ride to fascism.”
“LISTEN TO THIS SHITLIB LOL”
Sorry that you think marginalized groups should be murdered as fast as possible, I guess.
PJ, I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, you are the biggest dork I’ve ever found on the internet.
PJ, I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, you are the biggest dork I’ve ever found on the internet.
Because I… want fewer marginalized groups to be murdered?
Uh, okay.
YDI.
Don’t go into subs that you don’t agree with, just to argue or try to prove someone wrong, and then get mad when you get kicked out for it.
Read the room, friend.
Wanna bet if you did the same, .world would want you banned again?
I’m not sure what you mean. I never posted stuff to .world to just stir up trouble. When I was still on .world, it was before the election. And Lemmy was a much different place right before the election; as in even more extreme and pro-censorship.
I was hated on .world c/politics (and most of Lemmy) because I advocated for third party, and was vocal that I was gonna vote third party. I was a proud supporter of the socialist party, and that’s the way I voted.
My posts are still there, and can be seen by anyone. The reason I got banned is because I double-posted (accidentally) an article from newsweek that said that Trump was rising in the polls. The post that got me banned is still there. Anyone can see it.
Lemmy was pissed at anyone who posted anything about Trump rising in the polls. .worlders all said it wasn’t true, Newsweek was russian propaganda (!), I was a russian accepting money to post, I’d disappear after the election, etc. Boom! Then ban hammer.
Well, turns out that Trump WAS rising in the polls. He DID win the election. And I DID vote socialist party. And I’m STILL on Lemmy.
So I was correct about every single thing I posted on .world. And I stand by all my posts, and I’m glad they are still there. And now Lemmy isn’t as opposed to third parties, now that they see all the nonsense that happened with duopoly’s.
Also, I STILL support socialist party, and still post socialist links. And .world (and most of Lemmy) still hates me. lmao
Oh I know, you were in good faith and got banned. PJ is dishonest and enters spaces where he’s intentionally stirring up shit and then whines when he gets banned.
Ahhh, ok, sorry for my overly long explanation then. I wasn’t sure what you were implying. And yes, I agree, PJ likes to stir up drama.
Thank you, friend!
Nah it is good you wrote it out, we need this kind of simple vulnerability to combat the downright terrifying delusions people spout in the form of easy reactionary narratives that flatten reality into someone to point a finger at.
An anarchist not respecting free speech and enforcing rules on a forum is hilarious to me.
As we all know, anarchism is no rules, and the less rules there are, the more anarchist it is.
That is indeed the definition of anarchy.
Noun. 1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems.
In political discourse anarchy has been given another meaning which is the elimination of undue power and self-governmen. Left anarchism focuses on eliminating hierarchies (power not justified by ability or need), while right anarchism focuses on eliminating special legal privileges such as those of the state.
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You had me
comm’s
…right to there.
For bonus points, anyone who believes in harm reduction is now not a real anarchist.
