People who spend all their time punching left when the US secret police are straight up disappearing people from the streets and sending them to a concentration camp should be treated like the Nazis they are, yes.
Lol “punching left” nah I just don’t subscribe to the idea of replacing capitalism authoritarianism with “left flavored” authoritarianism that the tankies push so hard for
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.
Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.
Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: “I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:
“I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?
While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
Not voting doesn’t help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn’t dissappearing people.
I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn’t maybe I would have protested in another way. I’m not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I’m not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.
I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.
That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
I’ll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote “blue” because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote “blue.” The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote “blue,” to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn’t care about Palestine, and that’s why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it’s happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You’re not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don’t know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience it’s not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn’t get banned for wrongthink yet and it’s not the first time.
Just don’t be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I’ve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I’ve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I’m more comfortable in the ‘tankie-run’ spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I’ve seen them actually attempting to address it when it’s brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I’ve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it’s going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn’t care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia’s invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they’re somehow not “in favor” of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:
I don’t think this is them trolling you, (…)
spoiler
it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china ‘dumbfuck’
I’m actually primarily a .ml user, (…)
spoiler
I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.
I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but I’ve pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.
Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (…)
spoiler
The “answering questions” sticks out, because that’s what they’re referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- it’s not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, that’s just internet slang. I didn’t see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if they’re not browsing local.
I could just ignore it but I feel like that’s not the way. I don’t really feel like ceding the narrative space to them even if 99% of the people reading understand that they’re full of shit about it. I think most people have just moved on from wanting to engage with it.
I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and it’s something I’m working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since you’re banned, I’ll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why you’re going to get a response reflecting that.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass
spoiler
It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way it’s not jingoism to express that knowledge.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO
spoiler
It’s a common anarchist/communist position in all sorts of countries to oppose military alliances like NATO, not an example of russian jingoism- but I would also agree with their assessment that this war has been the result of a protracted civil war that’s been happening since 2014. Post 2022 is that civil war bubbling over to include Russia directly.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination
spoiler
Forced conscription is wildly unpopular no matter where you are, it’s part of why people are opposed to wars in general.
“Nazi Government that the US props up”, “pogroms” from the previous comment- I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights I’ve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
Aren’t you in favor of self-determination? I really wish things had simply de-escalated and followed that track rather than this nightmare. Anyway, none of this is jingoim.
conclusion:
spoiler
I’m actually trying to be impartial, my takeaway is it looks like you’re just being overly antagonistic in the entire exchange. Your premise seems to be that they’re fostering an insular culture because they censor truth-speakers like yourself, let’s go back to the exchange that seemed to kick this off:
How Trump backed away from promising to end the Russia-Ukraine war in 24 hours
Ceasefires broadly speaking are going to be a process that’s going to involve violations on both sides due to all sorts of reason until the situation stabilizes, in this case via diplomatic solution hopefully.
Nakoiochi’s response is not jingoistic here either, I asked earlier in this essay if you support self-determination, you might also recognize that ‘going home’ might involve some staying to protect the separatist republics.
I might as well address the ban here too:
spoiler
I frankly found your iran/north korea comment in the log very hard to parse in the first place, but I did want to raise this exchange:
I get that this was sort of a low energy back and forth jab, but the reason they clapped you was because you basically jumped to (in slightly more elegant words) saying “what are you RUSSIAN?” at someone giving you a goad, and then it kind of spiraled after.
re: calling someone Russian for naysaying you-
Among Russians, we’re not all going to have the same opinions, there’s plenty of Russians (expats in particular) who would tow a line which conforms a lot more towards yours for example. There’s no need to start calling out ethnic groups just because you feel like you’re in a propaganda space that you need to defend. That’s my read on why they responded with a ban, I will grant it’s a bit heavy handed considering it’s an offsite comment.
From what I’ve gathered in my time is there’s a lot of Americans on the site rather than Russians. They have a lot of people on the site who are more interested in curating a comfortable space rather than having an active presence in this ‘propaganda space’ and would prefer continued defederation- they said as much in the last federation referendum, I don’t think there’s a coordinated propaganda effort at play.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it’s worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
I won’t speak for you specifically, since we’ve never interacted, but we both know ML’s management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.
You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.
openly supportive of russian genocidal imperialism
failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.
other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry
I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole “they’re open to dissent, just not bigotry” is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying “we allow everyone, just not trolls” and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for “trolling” saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.
It’s a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn’t really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.
If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I’ve ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don’t do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.
I went and checked, was it on this account? The only thing I see in their modlog is you got a comment removed- this one:
and like I agree with removing that, it just looks like you’re doing this:
You didn’t even get banned.
Like I’ve actually tried looking up every time I see someone complaining about draconian mod actions and more often then not it’s something that just someone stirring shit and getting their wrist slapped, rather than the free speech 1984 gulag that they go on to complain about elsewhere.
People who spend all their time punching left when the US secret police are straight up disappearing people from the streets and sending them to a concentration camp should be treated like the Nazis they are, yes.
Lol “punching left” nah I just don’t subscribe to the idea of replacing capitalism authoritarianism with “left flavored” authoritarianism that the tankies push so hard for
!meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works for documentation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying cm0002 is a Nazi or something like that.
I disagree with the characterization of LW, but at least now I correctly understand what you are saying. 😀
feel free to disagree with it, from where I’m standing they are, and he is
No, this is a ridiculous statement.
Especially coming from someone from ML; an instance run by a group that openly supports imperialism (including by capitalists that they support), white-washes genocide and supports authoritarianism.
That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
I’m an anarchist, I don’t ‘support’ any of these parties beyond having a cautious optimism seeing China execute billionaires who misbehave.
Not a single person said that.
Let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing. That was the mantra, it has since pivoted to post-hoc scolding and gloating in the vein of: “I just fantasized about the republicans killing you”
Paraphrasing, eh? Neat world! Neat word too. But I have a quick question about this… paraphrasing world of yours:
Can you tell me who exactly this phrase is para’d from? Did I say that right? Either way, if you can’t, well… that’s another lie you’ve been caught in, right? What would that be?
Three in this thread alone?
That one came from this- https://hexbear.net/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=1765223
It looked enough like gloating about the situation to piss people off:
https://hexbear.net/comment/5568891
“let me introduce you to the world of paraphrasing” I meant it as world; like I’m introducing an entirely new concept to you, rather than just a word.
While the democrats should have supported palestine, voting blue would have led to a favourable outcome anyway.
Not voting doesn’t help palestine whatsover. I get the arguments against lesser evil stuff, but its a bit easier to fix a broken system when the system isn’t dissappearing people.
I live in a state where her winning was a forgone conclusion, if I didn’t maybe I would have protested in another way. I’m not advocating for acceleration, the democrats are more an organization of managed decline, while Trump was clearly dead-set on kicking the leg out from under the table. I’m not interested in seeing it all fall apart, if anything I find that when I try to warn against what I think are the harmful decisions the Democrats make I get dismissed out of hand.
I will say that I am finding much higher frequency of people showing up to in person organizing in the last 3 months than in the last ~3 years under Biden.
Well, there is a lot more to protest now with Trump.
It is annoying for people to dismiss any critisism against the democrats. Some people think they are a perfect, flawless party.
I’ll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote “blue” because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote “blue.” The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote “blue,” to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didn’t care about Palestine, and that’s why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when it’s happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. You’re not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I don’t know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out ‘the .ml general consensus’ by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience it’s not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didn’t get banned for wrongthink yet and it’s not the first time.
Just don’t be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe I’ve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. I’ve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if I’m more comfortable in the ‘tankie-run’ spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and I’ve seen them actually attempting to address it when it’s brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) I’ve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender it’s going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didn’t care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
Here’s the kind of thing I was talking about:
https://ponder.cat/post/2492263
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russia’s invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if they’re somehow not “in favor” of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:
I don’t think this is them trolling you, (…)
spoiler
it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china ‘dumbfuck’
I’m actually primarily a .ml user, (…)
spoiler
I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.
I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but I’ve pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.
Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (…)
spoiler
The “answering questions” sticks out, because that’s what they’re referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- it’s not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, that’s just internet slang. I didn’t see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if they’re not browsing local.
I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and it’s something I’m working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since you’re banned, I’ll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why you’re going to get a response reflecting that.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass
spoiler
It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way it’s not jingoism to express that knowledge.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO
spoiler
It’s a common anarchist/communist position in all sorts of countries to oppose military alliances like NATO, not an example of russian jingoism- but I would also agree with their assessment that this war has been the result of a protracted civil war that’s been happening since 2014. Post 2022 is that civil war bubbling over to include Russia directly.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination
spoiler
Forced conscription is wildly unpopular no matter where you are, it’s part of why people are opposed to wars in general. “Nazi Government that the US props up”, “pogroms” from the previous comment- I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights I’ve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
Aren’t you in favor of self-determination? I really wish things had simply de-escalated and followed that track rather than this nightmare. Anyway, none of this is jingoim.
conclusion:
spoiler
I’m actually trying to be impartial, my takeaway is it looks like you’re just being overly antagonistic in the entire exchange. Your premise seems to be that they’re fostering an insular culture because they censor truth-speakers like yourself, let’s go back to the exchange that seemed to kick this off:
Ceasefires broadly speaking are going to be a process that’s going to involve violations on both sides due to all sorts of reason until the situation stabilizes, in this case via diplomatic solution hopefully.
Nakoiochi’s response is not jingoistic here either, I asked earlier in this essay if you support self-determination, you might also recognize that ‘going home’ might involve some staying to protect the separatist republics.
I might as well address the ban here too:
spoiler
I frankly found your iran/north korea comment in the log very hard to parse in the first place, but I did want to raise this exchange:
I get that this was sort of a low energy back and forth jab, but the reason they clapped you was because you basically jumped to (in slightly more elegant words) saying “what are you RUSSIAN?” at someone giving you a goad, and then it kind of spiraled after.
re: calling someone Russian for naysaying you-
Among Russians, we’re not all going to have the same opinions, there’s plenty of Russians (expats in particular) who would tow a line which conforms a lot more towards yours for example. There’s no need to start calling out ethnic groups just because you feel like you’re in a propaganda space that you need to defend. That’s my read on why they responded with a ban, I will grant it’s a bit heavy handed considering it’s an offsite comment.
From what I’ve gathered in my time is there’s a lot of Americans on the site rather than Russians. They have a lot of people on the site who are more interested in curating a comfortable space rather than having an active presence in this ‘propaganda space’ and would prefer continued defederation- they said as much in the last federation referendum, I don’t think there’s a coordinated propaganda effort at play.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what it’s worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
I won’t speak for you specifically, since we’ve never interacted, but we both know ML’s management are openly supportive of imperialism and genocide.
You call LW users nazis, but you are more than happy to affiliate with a group that supports russian genocidal imperialism, knowingly lies about the attrocities commited by the russians and openly cheers for the russian army.
failing to carry water for the US consensus narrative on all events related to geopolitics does not mean that people automatically support the geopolitical enemies to the fullest extent.
I outlined my position in the other reply, these servers are not really a monolith other than when it comes time to shut down bigotry
You talk big, yet you wish death to Ukrainians and cheer for russians to capture Ukrainian territory and eradicate Ukrainian culture.
You’re not fooling anyone.
EDIT: Since you’re fine with ice pick murder fantasies, let me say the following:
I do hope one day you and your fellow tankies get to experience the life of “Donbas Cowboy”, Russell Bentley.
Just imagine what was going through his mind in those last moments.
re: death threat, For the record, I apologized to the guy and he accepted it.
I most certainly do not. You seem primed to construe anything that’s not absolute demonization as support though.
thank you for the “radio free Europe” article I will file that away with the rest of the high quality journalism.
I came into hexbear disagreeing with something or other that got posted, and then started talking about Biden when someone brought him up. They threatened to kill me, threatened to stab me with an icepick, sent me shit pictures, and then banned me. This whole “they’re open to dissent, just not bigotry” is about as convincing as a MAGA person saying “we allow everyone, just not trolls” and then throwing a total unhinged wobbler if anyone ever disagrees with them and then banning the person for “trolling” saying they must have been inviting the wobbler by disagreeing.
It’s a standard playbook for fig-leaf-justifying censoring a space. It actually really works well for producing a bizarre echo-chamber which doesn’t really understand what anyone outside the echo chamber believes.
If your forum allows polite dissent from people on the team, but gives some of the most aggressive hostility and bans I’ve ever seen to anyone who actually disagrees, just say so and own it. Don’t do this bullshit of pretending it is something else.
I went and checked, was it on this account? The only thing I see in their modlog is you got a comment removed- this one:
and like I agree with removing that, it just looks like you’re doing this:
You didn’t even get banned.
Like I’ve actually tried looking up every time I see someone complaining about draconian mod actions and more often then not it’s something that just someone stirring shit and getting their wrist slapped, rather than the free speech 1984 gulag that they go on to complain about elsewhere.