Is Lemmy.world a cover for Liberalism, because it’s run by liberals? Is db0 a cover for Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism, because db0 is a Libertarian Socialist?
Liberals and libertarian socialists are usually pretty open about what they believe, so there’s no cover needed. They’re not covert ideologies like tankies have.
However neoliberalism is a fairly hated ideology. If the people who ran lemmy.world were literally the same people running a neoliberalism sub on that instance and they also ran thatcher.love or whatever, and they banned people for saying neoliberalism was trash, then yeah, it would be a reasonable inference that lemmy.world was some sort of entryist ploy.
It is the existence of lemmygrad combined with the behaviour of the people running lemmy.ml that makes the case to defederate. If that happens and you don’t like it, you could always migrate your account, unless you like it there, in which case you’re probably not the normie you first appeared to be.
That’s a fair point, although I would say socialism is becoming less fringe, and it seems like the various types of libsoc are the main forms of socialism because people have seen the failures of state based solutions, even amongst demsocs/socdems.
That said, I kind of agree and the word “fringe” didn’t sit quite right. On reflection a better word would be “covert”, since ideologies that explicitly want to dominate people tend to hide what they are, since they know it’s not acceptable to state their aims up front. That’s really the idea I was getting at.
Lemmy.world regularly bans Marxist-Leninists, it is a two-way street there.
Again, I truly don’t see how Lemmygrad taking the marxist-leninists means Lemmy.ml is a cover for Marxism-Leninism, it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.
Anecdotally I have seen Marxist-Leninists calmly arguing in politics communities banned for being “tankies.” I will admit, I do not have any examples on-hand.
Imagine if someone defended nazis with “they were calmly denying the Holocaust”. I’ve seen far too many tankies denying the Uyghur genocide every chance they get. Like you say, it doesn’t matter the tone; genocide denial is itself a line you don’t cross.
I can’t find a reputable international human rights organization that calls it a genocide. Human Rights violations, sure. Crimes against humanity, maybe, but not genocide.
The U.N. rights council on Thursday voted down a Western-led motion to hold a debate about alleged human rights abuses by China against Uyghurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang in a victory for Beijing as it seeks to avoid further scrutiny.
The defeat - 19 against, 17 for, 11 abstentions - is only the second time in the council’s 16-year history that a motion has been rejected and is seen by observers as a setback to both accountability efforts, the West’s moral authority on human rights and the credibility of the United Nations itself. Source
If it’s a genocide, why hasn’t it been taken to the International Court of Justice?
An alternative route is provided by the International Court of Justice, as highlightedby the Uyghur Tribunal, which stated: “It is unfortunate that no efforts have been made by those [countries who declared China to be perpetrating genocide in Xinjiang] or other countries to have the issue dealt with at the ICJ, as might happen if a country had the courage to take the matter there.” Source
A majority of the countries that voted with China on that attempt were/are extremely tied to China and heavily economically reliant on China, and upsetting China enough means a potential economic crisis.
(UNCTAD & World Bank)
(note that Venezuela actually imported more from China than the US in 2020 according to some sources)
It only makes sense for them to not vote against China, no matter their actual crimes, it would be biting the hand that feeds them. It’s a similar reason as to why almost no country officially recognizes Taiwan as its own country separate from PRC, despite continuing relations with Taiwan and even importing a lot from them.
Of course, EU/NATO/NATO-ish countries don’t exactly care as much because their thoughts on China have long been established, China economically relies on them to a large extent, and they don’t have as much to lose if China hypothetically did get a bit angry at them. The richer ones also have very low risk of actual “consequences” when criticizing the US so they tend to do it quite a lot, but here they seem to be in agreement.
Exactly. When the accused has paid off half the jury, you shouldn’t put much stock in the verdict.
The only thing I care about when determining whether something is a genocide is the facts of the case (which are overwhelmingly in favor of describing the Uyghur genocide as a genocide), not the outcome of a highly political vote by countries all with their own motives and interests.
It’s almost like it would be geopolitically in America and Europe’s interest to over exaggerate a humanitarian crisis in China. And for China to minimize the cultural impact it’s policies have on the Uyghurs.
I do. I had a post removed from political memes because apparently people didn’t like the fact that a Nazi was made a chairman in NATO. Adolf Heusinger
That was never brought up in the post or the comments. The post was removed for “misinformation,” when it is completely factual. The commenters first countered that it wasn’t true. He wasn’t actually a Nazi. He wasn’t a chairman. When that failed, they focused on the pedantry of “a” chairman versus “the” chairman. And I guess it was reported and removed.
Just pointing out that the same exclusionary tribalism happens on .world as it happens on .ml and Lemmygrad.
And your vague-posting about it gives a fair and balanced account, I’m sure, but if you want to make your case, link the thread, if you think it will vindicate you.
“it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.” -moderated and controlled at least somewhat by tankies who will delete your comment and possibly ban you for saying things about their flavour of communism that they dont like
Liberals and libertarian socialists are usually pretty open about what they believe, so there’s no cover needed. They’re not covert ideologies like tankies have.
However neoliberalism is a fairly hated ideology. If the people who ran lemmy.world were literally the same people running a neoliberalism sub on that instance and they also ran thatcher.love or whatever, and they banned people for saying neoliberalism was trash, then yeah, it would be a reasonable inference that lemmy.world was some sort of entryist ploy.
It is the existence of lemmygrad combined with the behaviour of the people running lemmy.ml that makes the case to defederate. If that happens and you don’t like it, you could always migrate your account, unless you like it there, in which case you’re probably not the normie you first appeared to be.
Edit: changed “fringe” to “covert”.
Completely tangential, but imma be real with you: libsocs are fringe too.
Indeed, socialism of any sort is pretty fringe in most of the West.
That’s a fair point, although I would say socialism is becoming less fringe, and it seems like the various types of libsoc are the main forms of socialism because people have seen the failures of state based solutions, even amongst demsocs/socdems.
That said, I kind of agree and the word “fringe” didn’t sit quite right. On reflection a better word would be “covert”, since ideologies that explicitly want to dominate people tend to hide what they are, since they know it’s not acceptable to state their aims up front. That’s really the idea I was getting at.
Fair
Lemmy.world regularly bans Marxist-Leninists, it is a two-way street there.
Again, I truly don’t see how Lemmygrad taking the marxist-leninists means Lemmy.ml is a cover for Marxism-Leninism, it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.
Just for being marxist-leninists? Or because they were toxic assholes?
Anecdotally I have seen Marxist-Leninists calmly arguing in politics communities banned for being “tankies.” I will admit, I do not have any examples on-hand.
So do they regularly do this, or is it a thing you’ve seen anecdotally?
And if the thing they were calmly arguing was genocide denial, then the ban was warranted. The tone is not the only thing that matters.
Imagine if someone defended nazis with “they were calmly denying the Holocaust”. I’ve seen far too many tankies denying the Uyghur genocide every chance they get. Like you say, it doesn’t matter the tone; genocide denial is itself a line you don’t cross.
I can’t find a reputable international human rights organization that calls it a genocide. Human Rights violations, sure. Crimes against humanity, maybe, but not genocide.
If it’s a genocide, why hasn’t it been taken to the International Court of Justice?
A majority of the countries that voted with China on that attempt were/are extremely tied to China and heavily economically reliant on China, and upsetting China enough means a potential economic crisis.
(UNCTAD & World Bank)
(note that Venezuela actually imported more from China than the US in 2020 according to some sources)
It only makes sense for them to not vote against China, no matter their actual crimes, it would be biting the hand that feeds them. It’s a similar reason as to why almost no country officially recognizes Taiwan as its own country separate from PRC, despite continuing relations with Taiwan and even importing a lot from them.
Of course, EU/NATO/NATO-ish countries don’t exactly care as much because their thoughts on China have long been established, China economically relies on them to a large extent, and they don’t have as much to lose if China hypothetically did get a bit angry at them. The richer ones also have very low risk of actual “consequences” when criticizing the US so they tend to do it quite a lot, but here they seem to be in agreement.
Exactly. When the accused has paid off half the jury, you shouldn’t put much stock in the verdict.
The only thing I care about when determining whether something is a genocide is the facts of the case (which are overwhelmingly in favor of describing the Uyghur genocide as a genocide), not the outcome of a highly political vote by countries all with their own motives and interests.
It’s almost like it would be geopolitically in America and Europe’s interest to over exaggerate a humanitarian crisis in China. And for China to minimize the cultural impact it’s policies have on the Uyghurs.
I dont have data on it, sorry to say.
I do. I had a post removed from political memes because apparently people didn’t like the fact that a Nazi was made a chairman in NATO. Adolf Heusinger
We know that, it’s the implication that that somehow justifies Russia invading Ukraine is what makes you a tankie.
That was never brought up in the post or the comments. The post was removed for “misinformation,” when it is completely factual. The commenters first countered that it wasn’t true. He wasn’t actually a Nazi. He wasn’t a chairman. When that failed, they focused on the pedantry of “a” chairman versus “the” chairman. And I guess it was reported and removed.
Just pointing out that the same exclusionary tribalism happens on .world as it happens on .ml and Lemmygrad.
And your vague-posting about it gives a fair and balanced account, I’m sure, but if you want to make your case, link the thread, if you think it will vindicate you.
I don’t need vindication. But, have at it, if you have some time.
If that were the case, we wouldn’t see a single rightwinger over here. Unfortunately, there are many.
Yes, moderation is famously capable of immediately removing every single toxic asshole in any forum.
“it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.” -moderated and controlled at least somewhat by tankies who will delete your comment and possibly ban you for saying things about their flavour of communism that they dont like