• Wertheimer [any]@hexbear.net
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    12 days ago

    I’ll ping you later in the week. Good excuse to type up my notes from that book, which I’ve been procrastinating on.

    What are you reading now?

    • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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      12 days ago

      I’m on a re-read of German Ideology because a new reading group in my party wants to do it and they need me to set up the leading questions. I’m also reading Marx’s Inferno, but I’ve had to slow that one down, though I find it a really intriguing book!

      • Wertheimer [any]@hexbear.net
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        9 days ago

        How familiar does one have to be with Marx and Engels’s opponents in The Holy Family or The German Ideology? I’ve only read excerpts in anthologies and not the full texts.

        Some notes on Ahmad:

        Rockhill favorably cites Ahmad in his introduction to Losurdo’s Western Marxism, so some of this may be covered in their works, as well. Ahmad is mostly focused on literary theory, and the ways many Western theorists clump all of “Third World” literature together, while also only treating examples of it written or translated into English, but he also discusses the general intellectual climate in Europe and the U.S. between 1968 and the fall of the U.S.S.R.

        Although there are positive aspects of Theory that are “worth retaining,” the “dominant strands within this ‘theory’. as it has unfolded after the movements of the 1960s were essentially over, have been mobilized to domesticate, in institutional ways, the very forms of political dissent which their movements had sought to foreground.” (p. 1)

        In the absence of a mass movement, theory turned away from political economy and the class struggle, while retaining some of the weaknesses of the movements that radicalized their participants. In France, the radical period coincided with the Algerian and Indochina Wars, but that period (1945-1965) was also the time of “the installation of a new-style, Fordist regime of capital accumulation, thanks largely to French acceptance of the Marshall Plan” (p. 59) In the U.S., the antiwar movement’s “predominant sentiment was that of anti-colonialism, and the bulk of the mobilization, including the main organizers (the role of the Church and pacifist groups is usually understated in accounts from the Left) represented the political traditions of decent liberalism thrown into agony by the scale of savagery and the number of American deaths” (p. 40).

        The result (of this among other things – as you can tell my my page numbers I’m bouncing around a bit)

        was that the radicalism that arose in the United States in 1968 or thereabouts did not, except in some small pockets, believe in the desirability of socialism in its own country or in any realistic possibility of a revolutionary movement in the West, while its counterparts in the Parisian intelligentsia seemed to believe more in Surrealism than in socialism and quickly settled into poststructuralisms and New Philosophies which were directly hostile to Marxism and to the idea of any historical role for the working class. The overwhelming majority of the Left in the metropolitan countries actually believed – whether it said so in as many words or not – that the combination of the Fordist regimes of accumulation and the welfarist compact for industrial labour, which had underwritten the anti-communist consensus in the advanced capitalist countries, was the best possible choice for their own countries, and what they needed to do now was to refine the democratic premisses of liberal-capitalist regimes on their own terms. . . . [S]ocialism, in other words, was poor man’s capitalism. (p. 27)

        Another major issue was that of academic professionalism and professionalization. The generation that came of age after the '60s in the U.S. had no major homegrown theorists as their forebears. The previous generation of Communists were activists who were purged from the universities in the McCarthy Era and didn’t leave behind much written output. Meanwhile, once Nixon started pulling troops out of Vietnam, the movement was dead. “It is a measure of how much the American Left has needed to suppress the memory of Vietnam in the process of normalizing itself into a professionally responsible stratum that it organized no movement of any proportions either to demand from its state that it undertake reparations or to mobilize resources from the citizenry to help rebuild what their rulers and armies had destroyed so utterly” (p. 28).

        Coupled with the turn from political economy to culture, this was a fatal error. “When this material devastation brought in its train the inevitable disorientations in the social and political domains, those who believe in the moral grandeur of revolutions but not in the brute reality of the material conditions in which people actually build their own lives and their revolutions were thoroughly disillusioned” (p. 29).

        The new leftist academics, then, produced “a very academic kind of Marxism; and given the absence of a preceding Marxist cultural tradition, this new Marxism was frequently and fashionably combined with all sorts of other things, in all kinds of eclectic and even esoteric ways” (p. 62).

        But they didn’t really critique themselves.

        A difficult but also pressing question for theory, one would have thought, would consist of the proper specification of the dialectic between objective determination and individual agency in the theorist’s own production. This would be an especially pressing issue – not so much in the form of censorship as of self-censorship and spontaneous refashioning – as the radical theorist takes up the role of a professional academic in the metropolitan university, with no accountable relation between classes and class-fractions outside the culture industry. The characteristic feature of contemporary radicalism is that it rarely addresses the question of its own determination by the conditions of its production and the class location of its agents. In the rare case where the issue of one’s own location – hence of the social determination of one’s own practice – is addressed at all, even fleetingly, the stance is characteristically that of a very poststructuralist kind of ironic self-referentiality and self-pleasuring. (p. 6)

        Marcuse’s turn toward the erotic, Adorno’s pessimism, Althusser’s all-too-broad account of ideological state apparatuses, etc., contributed to the (non- or anti-Marxist) development of poststructuralism, with its Foucauldian “discourses” and conversations (p. 38-39). And what of conversation?

        The notable achievement of the ‘children of ‘68’ is that they did not even intend to give rise to a political formation that might organize any fundamental solidarity with the two million workers who are currently unemployed in France. Debates about culture and literature on the Left no longer presume a labour movement as the ground on which they arise; ‘theory’ is now seen . . . as a ‘conversation’ among academic professionals. (p. 2)

        In some American dilutions of this theory of the dispersal and fracturing of historical subjects, the idea of ‘inquiry’, which presumes the possibility of finding some believable truth, was to be replaced with the idea of ‘conversation’ which is by its nature inconclusive. . . This theory-as conversation has a remarkably strong levelling effect. One is now free to cite Marxists and anti-Marxists, feminists and anti-feminists, deconstructionists, phenomenologists, or whatever other theorist comes to mind, to validate successive positions within an argument, so long as one has a long list of citations, bibliographies, etc., in the well-behaved academic manner. (p. 70)

        The result is a theory with a “distinctly consumptionist slant” (p. 71).

        Anyway, there’s a whole lot more to the book, especially on literature, post-colonialism, and anti-imperialism. The chapters where he critiques Fredric Jameson and Edward Said are really great, too.

        • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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          9 days ago

          Oh man that part about the string of citations is realllllly good. So I see that Ahmad is in the same sort of project as Rochkill, an analysis of how the major thinkers of the time got us to where we are. He takes positions which I am already pretty sympathetic or in agreement with, so it would be a good read! I’m putting it om the list!

        • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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          9 days ago

          On the german ideology and holy family, I’m of the opinion that passing knowledge is fine if you’re not trying to be a Marx scholar. I think it’s ok to trust that people like Losurdo can holistically describe marx through his life of learning and not become someone who knows the books in and out. German Ideology provides some useful points to grasp to understand how Marx thinks generally, but isn’t as useful to really grasp Capital and his mature works because he was still really working through his Hegelianism. My favorite example is his use of ‘alienation’ which still lacks in materialist rigour, but he later develops it into exploitation and commodity fetishism as the ways that alienation materially arises at both ends of the commodity process.

          They are also useful to place yourself into Marxs shoes and understand the type of polemics he does and how he tries to argue his points generally. But if you’re already comfy in his later works then who cares unless you’re trying to make new claims about Marx?

            • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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              8 days ago

              Meh, I wouldn’t be rereading it if my party wasn’t trying to organize a newbie reading group. I’m needed as a well-enough-read comrade to think of good questions to stimulate comradely debate.

          • timdrake@lemmy.ml
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            8 days ago

            I think it’s really strange to read the main transitional aspect of TGI as Marx “working through his Hegelianism”/this being the main separation between it and Capital, when Marx never had any Hegelianism to work through, and only describes himself as a “disciple of Hegel” (/calls Hegel “my master”) in maturity; wrt alienation, Marx already basically lays out his mature conception of alienation in TGI as a feeling that drives the proletariat to revolution and as a necessary historical phase to create the productive forces necessary for communism (all this as opposed to alienation being a humanist value postulate, as in The Holy Family), and the further detail/development of the concept of alienation (in how it historically arises and manifests itself) in Capital has nothing to do with Marx having further thrown off his Hegelianism, it’s just a direct product of his further economic research where he stops being reliant on Smith (for TGI) and constructs his own political economy.

            • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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              8 days ago

              Is it better if I say idealism? Marx was trying to flesh out materialism but only had Feuerbach as any good example before him, and was trying to establish a rigorous materialism. So I consider that his Hegelianism he was still working through, but maybe it helps if we just say that Marx still had some idealism that he needed to work through to get to a rigorous materialism (dialectical, of course)?

              You used the word “feeling” in your definition of alienation as described in TGI. Meanwhile the mature versions of Commodity fetishism and exploitation are direct relations to production that are measurable. I would call this advancing past a hegelianism towards a scientific notion

              • timdrake@lemmy.ml
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                7 days ago

                Marx managed to fully transcend Feuerbach through interacting with the social materialism of classical political economy, so it’s incorrect to say he didn’t have a better example. I would consider it “idealist” in the Marxist sense to see the lack of detail in Marx’s explication of alienation as explained by some inner “idealism” holding him back (there is something like this with dual textual discourse but it’s a reflection of Marx’s incomplete economics research); the reality is that he just did not have the information at this point for the detail/specificity seen in Capital.

                You used the word “feeling” in your definition of alienation as described in TGI. Meanwhile the mature versions of Commodity fetishism and exploitation are direct relations to production that are measurable. I would call this advancing past a hegelianism towards a scientific notion

                Commodity fetishism is a feeling and an idea/appearance, and not a direct relation of production nor directly measurable. This is actually a good example to show that there is nothing un-Marxist/“idealist” about the notion of alienation as a feeling.

                • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  7 days ago

                  I see lacking in information to fully ground an idea as somewhere where idealism still lurks in the background. Im not condemning early Marx as not willing to get past his own hegelianism or idealism in critiquing terms, just literally saying that he still had a lifetime of throwing that shit off to go, and still at the end never could achieve it completely (looking at the unrigorous view of the state as a simple example). Im assigning no fault to him as a person or something. And of course he also had the English economists to follow for materialist analyses, I just mean in terms of people looking to assign philosophical rigour to materialism. Marx also was inspired by the materialism if Newton, Darwin, etc as scientists of course

                  I think commodity fetishism was something that Marx was working to make fully measurable and scientific (lacking information theory made this a monumental task). You can directly measure the loss of information in the commodity production process leading to a prices as we know them in capitalist production. The amount of info lost is a measure of the fetishism which directly replaces it by assigning the magical trait (of secretly containing all relevamt info) to the commodity itself.

                  I also am not here to say feelings can’t be material, Im just saying that feelings are rigorous to base pur theories on. It’s not ‘bad’ per se, just not as useful as concrete, measurable, scientific arguments.

                  • timdrake@lemmy.ml
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                    6 days ago

                    I see lacking in information to fully ground an idea as somewhere where idealism still lurks in the background.

                    I see the notion of “materialism vs. idealism,” where “materialism” is more rigorous and “idealism” is characterized by unscientific/hazy theories that vanish as it becomes more “materialist” as completely incorrect; not to get too far off topic but Marx’s “materialism” is fundamentally less rigorous/scientific than pure idealism due to grounding reason in given determinacy (foundations), eliminating all possibility of scientific philosophy, which can also be seen in Capital resting on assumptions that prevent it from being a fully proper systematic formulation of economic life.

                    In TGI, and you can see this in my summary, this feeling of being dominated which drives the proletariat to revolution is a product of an objective historical inversion which is necessary to form the ground for communism (Marx also talks about this in the draft ch. 6 of Capital); the degree to which living labor becomes “enslaved” to its own creation (capital), i.e. is ~divorced from control over the objective conditions of labor, is the degree to which alienation is felt, and this is roughly reflected in the relative size of the proletariat as a class. It’s really no less scientific/concrete than the concept of commodity fetishism. Note that the measurement you’re talking about is also indirect.