for example I am curious about the group who wrote some books and made others call their books holy

  • vvilld@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    History is written by the victors

    I have a BIG nitpick with this framing. While it is correct in many instances, it’s imprecise, and sometimes just flat out wrong.

    A better framing is “History is written by the historians”. In other words, the historical narrative is set by those who put forth the effort to do so. In many cases, those historians are writing from the perspective of the victors, but not always.

    I’ll give you a few examples:

    The Mongol Empire was one of (if not the) largest contiguous land empires in world history. They conquered everything from China to eastern Europe and Mesopotamia. By any interpretation of the word, the Mongols were the victors in virtually every conflict they had. Yet they also didn’t really write histories. There’s only 1 real Mongolian historical text we have: The Secret History of the Mongols. It was an account of the life and conquests of Genghis Kahn written shortly after his death. Yet, as the title alludes to, it wasn’t a public document. It was written for the ruling dynasty. The earliest copy we know of is a copy from ~200 years after the original was written, and it didn’t become widely read until another 300 years after that. For the first half-millennia after the Mongol conquests, the historical narrative was entirely based on the accounts people who were conquered by the Mongols. In other words, the history of the Mongol conquests and their subsequent empire were almost entirely written not by the victors, but by the conquered. This heavily influences our popular conception of the Mongols as barbaric war mongers who committed horrific acts of violence. We don’t think much about any other contributions the Mongols had in the realms of culture, economics, political administration, philosophy, diplomacy, etc because the people who wrote about the Mongols (and set the historical narrative) had no interest in portraying them in a positive light. Compare that to someone like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, etc. All of them were similarly successful conquerors and warlords, yet the historical narrative about them is FAR more complex and positive than that of Genghis Kahn. Because the history of Genghis Kahn was not written by the victors.

    Another example which is probably more accessible to a lot of people: The American Civil War. For most of the 150 years after the war ended up until just the past couple of decades, the prevailing popular narrative portrayed in pop culture and taught in schools was the Lost Cause narrative. The war was about States’ Rights. Slavery was not a part of the war at the beginning and the Union only brought it in later to justify their aggression towards the South. It was called the War of Northern Aggression by many. The South was primarily fighting to preserve a pastoral and romanticized way of life, etc, etc. This is the narrative portrayed in fiction such as Gone With the Wind and The Birth of a Nation. Of course, we know this to be bullshit. It was a war over slavery and the South was fighting to maintain the most brutal and oppressive form of slavery the world has ever seen. Yet for over a century that wasn’t the broadly accepted historical narrative because after the war ended people in the South put a lot of effort into creating and disseminating the Lost Cause narrative while the victors (the Union) didn’t put any effort into crafting an historical narrative. The North was more concerned with reuniting the nation and rebuilding, so much so that they completely gave up on Reconstruction and let the same people who had led the Confederacy run the South as an apartheid state for the next century.

    These are just 2 examples, but they aren’t the only ones by a long shot. History is not always written by the victors. It’s written by the people who put forth the effort to write it, and the historical narrative ends up reflecting this down to the modern day.

  • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    You do so by reading primary sources. From both the victors and the losers. On the losing side this can be difficult as their stuff is less likely to be preserved (intentionally or not). It is important to remember that every side will have its own bias, but this is often also shaped with time, so it is important to get sources that are as close as possible to the events before they can be mythologized. Also there are no wrong answers; just answers with supporting context.

      • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        I believe I have addressed that in my answer. Still I will add this. By definition a primary source is not “re-written”. Note I did not write unbiased. A bit of a Socratic approach: do the defeated embellish their stories?

        Because I think its worth re-stating for any social science:

        Also there are no wrong answers; just answers with supporting context.

        • andros_rex@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          By definition a primary source is not “re-written”.

          Then you are ruling out most ancient primary sources. I don’t think you understand ancient or medieval concepts of authorship, or document transmission.

        • mez@lemmy.worldOP
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          4 days ago

          so you’re saying there’s no way to find texts about actual history

          • cecilkorik@lemmy.ca
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            4 days ago

            There is always going to be some level of interpretation. You are looking for an absolute truth that, while it may theoretically exist, cannot be reliably perceived through a human lens, which you are guaranteed to have at least 1 of (yourself), and almost certainly 2 (the source), and maybe many, many, many more in between.

            Imagine you had a time machine that could bring you back into whatever time you’re interested so you can watch it unfold first-hand. Ok, great. But do you trust your eyes? Did you see everything that happened? Even if you can invisibly go and explore the aftermath. Even if you can go back to the same point 100 times, 1000 times, and meticulously detail everything you find. Do you now have the perfect and unambiguous truth? Of course not. You can make mistakes, you can misunderstand. Even our eyes lie to us. Even our brain misremembers things. Different people using the same time machine to travel to the exact same point in time may see what happens in an entirely different way, may see things that you did not see. Who’s right?

            I know you think you’re looking for the absolute unvarnished truth, but you are chasing a phantom. Your goal is not realistic. At some point you have to arbitrarily accept and define what errors and limitations the sources you’re drawing your understanding from might have, and attempt to make your own interpretation of what the facts actually are. You will never know what really happened with absolute certainty. Absolute certainty is its own kind of myth and there’s some very fundamental metaphysical reasons for that. You’re not going to find a magic textbook of trustworthy history that solves that problem.

            Understanding history is a process that requires connecting many different pieces of variously flawed contexts and information to paint your own, interpreted but hopefully relatively accurate picture. No matter what book you read, you cannot guarantee its accuracy and it is a fool’s errand to try, but you can continue to try to collect more evidence, more pieces of context, more clues to add more details to your picture. Perhaps you will never be satisfied with the detail of the picture you’ve created, sometimes you will have to throw your whole picture away and start to create a new and different picture on the basis of some details you find that don’t fit. You’re never going to have a perfect picture, but I think a lot of people have managed to create really pretty good ones based on a whole lot of research of many different sources and pieces of detail, not just written records alone but cultural references, archaeological artifacts, scientific analysis, and sometimes just assumptions about basic human behavior. You just have to learn who and what you can trust and how far you can trust them. Both as sources, and as interpreters. And you are always welcome to argue you own interpretation.

          • naught101@lemmy.world
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            4 days ago

            There is no way to find text about anything without various biases and values embedded in it. You just need to approach reading with a critical lens. Obviously more critical in some domains than others.

          • occultist8128@infosec.pub
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            4 days ago

            you can, re-read what the person above is saying about. not directly answering your question but you can watch this (there’s a tip how to know the actual history)

          • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
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            4 days ago

            THE NARRATIVE OF ALVAR NUÑEZ CABEÇA DE VACA

            These are some digitized primary sources. Feel free to read them and discuss what is “not actual history” with the class.

            The diary of a Napoleonic foot soldier is also another example.

            Could any of them have made stuff up? Maybe, even if they didn’t mean to. At a minimum we can say that their stories are real to them and are grounded in what we know from other sources. As far as the French Soldier example I am sure we might have a parallel Russian or Englishman to pair with it.

            Also there are no wrong answers; just answers with supporting context.

            @cecilkorik elaborates very well.

      • GeneralDingus@lemmy.cafe
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        4 days ago

        Rewriting/forging historical documents to fit your narrative is really difficult and time consuming. I’m sure you can go to a library and actually see the documents. You can even see this with declassified documents, although they’ll be redacted. This isn’t the same for internet archives though.

        I’d say, for “victors”, it’s easier to destroy primary sources.

        • harrys_balzac@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          4 days ago

          It’s the primary mission of pretty all colonizing societies - destroy the sources and you destroy a cultures collective memory.

  • andros_rex@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    What time periods/places are you interested in? I am able to and would be happy to give you a detailed list of primary and secondary sources for a good chunk of concepts.

    That’s the big thing - historians tend to focus. Even the university “western history from 1500” or whatever are going to vary a lot by what the professor is interested in and focused on. Behind just focusing on like a whole country or time period, they get super specific and do shit like figure out that whole undocumented kingdoms existed based on numismatic work (coins) or look at things like architectural influences that the crusaders brought back and can be seen in their classes (I had a prof who had a whole feminist interpretation of medieval castle architecture)

    Your comment alludes to the history of religion, which is definitely a complicated topic and has its own complexities in historiography (the study of history and techniques). Religion has interactions with so many other spheres, and so you also often have to dive deeply into the culture and history of the specific people who practiced it to understand the why - which is hard, because religious interpretations that are common now tend to get read backwards into the text.

    I’d be happy to give you a list of sources for any religion as well. (Do you feel most comfortable with texts for popular audiences, or would you like to explore academic material?)