I’m looking for some educational content too.
And as native culture is increasingly re-embraced, how fast do you think indigenous knowledge will spread about natural medicinal remedies from native plants? And further knowledge on what’s best to plant for local wildlife?
Because fascism always fails, I know these things will happen, but I have zero understanding of the framework for how it will.
So many natives have had their culture and language stripped from them to the point I don’t even know what this would look like. The Navajo nation has done wonders to retain their language, however some like Hawaiian only have a few hundred native speakers.
Indigenous people are also vastly outnumbered by people who have zero connection to them. The average white American has never even spoken to a indigenous person before, as in, an indigenous person with current tribal association or some connection to indigenous culture.
A benefit though is that many indigenous tribes don’t necessarily define themselves in ethnic or linguistic terms, but rather, they’re nations made up of various different people. Like the Choctaw or Iroquois. My very white grandpa actually lived on the Choctaw reservation for a while for work and got along with the folk there apparently. He would tell me he would have tried to live there permanently if he hadn’t met my grandma.
Granting land back to indigenous people is gonna have to be a very long term, multi-generation project not simply about land but also political autonomy, how to integrate people who aren’t native, and concerted efforts at language preservation. The only thing I know to point to is how even white New Zealanders take classes in the Maori language.
I might be off on this, but my recent thinking is along these lines:
- Landback is a component of the (american) indigenous liberation movement.
- The indigenous liberation movement is one of several decolonial movements.
- decolonial movements are closely associated with anti-imperialism, and both of those have a lot of association with socialism.
As a socialist living on occupied land, I believe it is imperative to build socialism here, while also working toward decolonizing our land (or reasons of justice, sustainability, anti-capitalism etc… the list goes on…). As we know “white people leftism” is prone to decay into social-fascism/liberalism unless it is grounded in some sort of third worldism/anti-imperialism/ or decolonialism (most straightforward in my opinion.
Like so many questions osurrounding social justice, it is my belief that a socialist future makes it much easier to address these topics head on. Liberal solutions under capitalism are just patchwork solutions that are not sufficient nor sufficiently robust.
I feel like I am still working through this thought process. I am caught between “under socialism we are going to eliminate all these injustices” which is true, but I also can’t “all lives matter” the specific work that needs to be done to liberate our indigenous comrades and other communities who have been crushed by capitalism harder than my settler ass. These things go hand in hand while also providing a sufficient grounding (literal grounding on the land itself) to prevent liberalism within the socialist movement.
I hope for a future without oppression, marginalization, and injustice where there is not a significant difference between settler and indigenous, nor will there be an oppressor/oppressed class. Likely will happen beyond my lifetime, of course.
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I’m talking about after mutual aid groups really pull community back together, and progress past things like building houses after the rubble is cleaned up.
Even before that though, with failed medical support because less and less people will have medical insurance, many of us will have to do like feudal China and take herbal remedies to survive. I’m sure that will kickstart interests in native plants, and then as land is returned, the culture of indigenous people will carry that flame.
It depends a lot on exactly what form the system after America takes. There’s no given answer for how land will be redistributed, how the question of Nationalism will be answered, exactly how much cooperation there will be with the indigenous bourgeoisie (esp. the Petite Bourgeoisie). But I think there’s a few forces to keep in mind, which I’ll phrase in the form of counterpoints to strawmen:
“There just aren’t enough Indians left to repopulate the land” - this is false. Human beings have an amazing capacity to make more of themselves. With proper monetary reparations and incentives, the Indigenous population could double every generation. Within a century, they could outnumber whites.
“You can’t just take away people’s homes!” - I think there are separate counterpoints for urban, rural, and suburban homes - the first is that, especially in our densest areas, most people are renters who are largely migratory anyways. When talking about land redistribution, in these cases the important part is not that the whites leave but that your white landlord is replaced by an Indian landlord (or the housing board of the autonomous indigenous state, if we’re talking about a more Socialist future).
And when it comes to single-family housing, I think a Socialist future would come with a significant drive for increased density anyways - we’re going to be bulldozing white neighborhoods anyways to build denser housing, leaving plenty of room for indigenous people. New indigenous neighborhoods could be built over wealthy neighborhoods whose inhabitants have been dispossessed, or in redeveloped land previously taken by big box stores and golf courses.
And for rural areas, commercial farming can be turned over to indigenous owners, and family farms are sort of a dying model anyways - there’s plenty of Whites eager to be bought out and plenty of land (either greenfields, or commercial estates that can be parceled out) for new family farms to be built, if desired.
And when it comes to single-family housing, I think a Socialist future would come with a significant drive for increased density anyways - we’re going to be bulldozing white neighborhoods anyways to build denser housing, leaving plenty of room for indigenous people.
Not only is building upwards is totally doable, it’s already been done for at least decades. Despite a high density population, Hong Kong is 3/4 lush nature. Some of it protected too. They achieve that by living in many skyscrapers.
Tangent: Although there’s an issue of air-conditioning for all the rising heat in skyscrapers, China developed this new metal alloy that cools down air without heating up the atmosphere. It may be able to cool entire buildings. (One can hope this technology can end up being applied to refrigerators.)
I think that is going to need to be answered by indigenous people.
Depends on what happens to the military and the nukes
Depends - there are Indigenous people represented throughout all levels of society and like any society aren’t monolithic - so I think you’d get different answers depending who you asked. In the past I’d gotten to listen to speakers from Anishinaabe, Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota Nations, primarily, and idk if I could summarize their thoughts in a singular view on it.
There’s Elders/young folks who have been fucked over in every way by colonialism through their lives yet still view from the lens of being stewards of the world with those who will be stewards with them, and there’s those who might want to kick my ass (deservedly); and there’s those that materially supported ICE.
Just like there’s colonizers can’t change the past but can only do their damnedest to change the future; and there’s those who support continuing systems of oppression.
Indigenous societies are as modern as any other. For instance if the Midwest US were returned to those nations, I don’t know how much would change in terms of societal organization, but we’d likely have far cleaner water. But it’s not the CHUD nightmare of “if they get Red Lake back we’re not gonna be able to fish it!” They’d let you ice fish, but would be less cool about you leaving your (literal) shit out on the ice; and maybe they’d prevent whiteys dumb ass from floating off an ice sheet.
Some books I’ve liked on that/related topics:
https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/2214-our-history-is-the-future
https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/2101-environmentalism-from-below
I think it will happen unevenly. Starting with whoever has enough weapons and favourable territorial conditions. A bit of sparkle. But in resistance there will always be the mormons of utah and their kind.
how fast do you think indigenous knowledge will spread about natural medicinal remedies from native plants?
Can you give an example or 2 of what you are thinking of?
What do you think is the relationship between indigenous people and unnatural remedies?
For the sake of OPSEC I’m not going to say what plants in my state I’ve been looking at. But here’s some examples from a general list.
I think we all benefit from a mix of both, natural and unnatural remedies.
Thanks. I have one primary question regarding the link you shared: Would or do you rely on “yew berries as a form of contraception”?
Your questions seems to imply “natural medicinal remedies from native plants” is a hope you have. Assuming that any of the suggested treatments are valid, why do you think it is better for a a populace the size of the united states to suddenly all be in search of such plants, some of which exist in tiny numbers and close to extinction, instead of synthesized medications which are wide used, understood and available?
Why do you think indigenous people stand against modern medicine?
No i dont use them. This is a new rabbithole I went down. I certainly hope when theyre most needed, none would be harvested to extinction… if people more people start specializing in herbal remedies, that’s a sad risk.
instead of synthesized medications which are wide used, understood and available?
Not instead. When synthesized meds are gatekept from us more and more we would have to find something. It occurs to me that natural remedies would be an important stand-in for where standardized medicine is gatekept due to no health insurance or med/treatment prices.
Why do you think indigenous people stand against modern medicine?
I don’t think that.
Sorry I was excessively harsh. I went down this path already so its hypocritical of me.
“natural medicine” can seem like a cute an whimsical idea but unfortunately, basically 0% of these preparations are better than what you can get today. Optimistically, say 10% of them are of any use what so ever.
I am not aware of a big problem of gatekept dewormer or cough medicine. For the most part, expensive medications have nothing even claiming to be a freely available alternative. There is no plant form of tenofivir or long acting insulin or inhalers or anti psychotics. There is always a cost associated with anything, just because something is a plant that does not go away, especially if it something that is required regularly for long-term use, or incidentally but needs to be reliably available. if any plant is chemically active (which is really way over stated much of the time, most of these are just vegetables at best) then you still need an expert to guide and manage use of it. And those people need to get paid like anyone else. Just because something is “natural” doesn’t make it more safe. The only way things are safe is by not doing anything. You can drink nettle decoction all day every day, it’s delicious. But it won’t cure anything. And its only free as long as most people think nettle is a weed.
People have real health problems. I think these things should be taken seriously and not just flippantly tossed around because you have jumped on a new trend. Real deal life & death. plants are almost never the answer. And that is not because some mystical ancient knowledge has been genocided away, it’s because plants just aren’t that good at being medicine. No plants, anywhere in the world. Prior to the existence of modern chemistry, it was all we had. But truly, pharmaceuticals are a progress of humanity. I’ll give you an example: Aspirin is derived from willow bark, you can make an analgesic preparation from willow if you want, try it next time you have a headache. A tea, tincture, chew or other ways. This is fairly well circulated information, yet virtually nobody does it. I’ve never done it. And even Aspirin as a pharmaceutical is much less popular than synthetics ibuprofen and acetaminophen/paracetamol, all 3 of which are available over the counter in the US. The other 2 are better for many situations. if you didn’t have any of those available, but you have a willow tree and the wherewithal to process it, it’s better than nothing. But the tree is unpredictable, higher rate of bad effects and a pain in the ass to prepare. And if a lot of people are going after it, there won’t be enough willow trees to go around. There is zero benefit to going for the willow bark other than a sort of aesthetic feeling of superiority. it does not scale at all. Willows are one of the best case scenarios; better than 99% of anything you will read about. Bulk of it is total trash.
The diagnostic process of modern medicine is almost completely reliant on technologies which have been developed in the past 50-200 years. Not because modern doctors are lazy, but because those technologies are immensely superior to any manual evaluations. No older medicine system is compatible with it diagnostically, to say nothing of treatments, including the ancestors of that system itself. Even if 100 years ago another system was on par with contemporary western medicine, if it hasn’t grown in step, any future benefits would not be a matter of “rediscovery” of some ancient lost wisdom, but of new knowledge creation with the shackles of racism and colonialism thrown off. So I think there is more to be learned, in the future, not the past. That’s how we get cooking with gas.
As you asked for suggestions of readings, a classic regarding this would be Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer (Potawatomi). It is on the issue of science more than medicine. Don’t dismiss it just because I am annoying you, this author is writing on a different focus and will be more constructive towards your goals.
if you didn’t have any of those available, but you have a willow tree and the wherewithal to process it, it’s better than nothing. But the tree is unpredictable, higher rate of bad effects and a pain in the ass to prepare
This is one of the only kinds of scenarios I’d risk ingestion of herbal remedies. What I was looking at was a poultice that helps shallow cuts and scrapes heal faster, and the antidepressant properties of the mimosa tree(invasive to the US) when someone’s feeling heavy enough levels of grief. The poultice for something small but could spin out to being life ending for an individual when it could be avoided with just a tidbit of help. The mimosa tree for someone going through what could stop them functioning during a crisis where they must momentarily relax, think clearer, and/or keep moving.
Yeah I could guess that modern medicine is usually what’s best.
It’s okay, I understand you assuming it could be pure whimsy since plants are neat. Going through such rabbitholes reveals delightful facts about them. This rabbithole is full of nice vibes. I guess I already understood all the things you mentioned(minus the herbalist needing to be paid too, I forgot about that) but it’s nice to have you summarize that all in text.
Really I don’t think anything is good to put on cuts. Its such a natural instinct to want to do it but the best thing is to keep it loosely covered but not in a damp way, clean with water and soap if needed. Poultices are unused in most any modern context because they are just a bunch of dirty crap. If there way any value, it would have been known and exploited. There is no conspiracy against poultices. They are easily comodifiable if any utility. Surface wounds are one of the most well understood of ailments because of their prevalence in military settings. Lit er al ly everything plausible has been tried, tested, studied.
Tincture of time is the cure to many problems. All medicinal traditions (including western) include things which practitioners understand as pointless but which give the suffering patient (or their family) something to do to keep their mind off things, to allow the body to heal itself. An elaborate prescription sometimes amounts to “go away for now and come back later”. And this is the best possible thing that can be said for “plant medicines” most of the time.
I just don’t think this concept one way or the other is relevant to your main question, which was a good and legitimate one, that ought to have ongoing discussions of many posts building on each other.
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IDK about mimosa, I looked on my fav website wikipedia:
and it is crediting Chinese medicine for the effect you describe. So I am having a hard time understanding that in context here. It seems that per your own description, this is an invasive plant, not the “native” which is idolized. We must think that any serious indigenous medicinal system, including plant-based, would likely be forward looking and looking around at the current realistic situation so that isn’t a total block. Also all people can learn from one another. The plant medicine that I have learned about are flexible in their communities of life. But can’t just be thinking spooky non white people are all kinda the same! that is very un good.
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