I think you’re getting at the concept of communism as a movement vs. communism as a mode of production. As a communist, I am committed to bringing about communism the mode of production, so in a way this process itself is “communism” from a certain view. However, this becomes very confusing for those not familiar, and so I try to keep things compartmentalized when discussing with those not as informed.
Socialism is chiefly a mode of production best seen as a transition between capitalism and communism. It’s the process of building the communist society where money, class, and the state have been abolished, where private property is no longer a thing. Drawing a distinction between the process of building something, and the object being built, is important. It’s the difference between the movement and the goal.
Yes but I think points of emphasis matter. Socialism may exist in some formal ways and some informal ways, but assuming it does, for example I know that you consider China to be at least partially/mostly socialist, the task is not for a socialist nation to become a communist nation, but for a socialist nation to become a socialist international, topple imperial international capitalist totality, and continually develop mass proletarian international productive forces, etc.,
So yes it is important to delineate “communist society” vs communist movement, in that the communist/proletarian movement actually exists, as it is the embodiment of the revolutionary potential of the working class; where “communist society” does not exist, and will not exist for a very long time.
So why define communism as something that it is not? Like its fine to imagine a better world, but it isn’t practical and it isn’t part of communism as it is inherently prefigurative. Communists concern ourseves with what exists, and what will exist (I’m not a huge fan of predictive Marxism, but knowing where we are headed is necessary for a successful political project) not what should exist.
Communism is post-socialist because it is what is compelled by the resolution of socialist contradictions. It’s useful to have a demarcation between wholly socialist countries like China, which necessarily have large numbers of contradictions that compel movement forward, with a future communist society that will be free of such contradictions like private property. Socialism isn’t something you can “partially be,” really, it’s a descriptor for the principal aspect of a society, what is rising within it. In that sense, it’s similar to what you’re getting at in socialism as a movement.
Someone appears to be serially downvoting my recent comments, which is more obvious by the fact that replies to grad comments are safe. Probably someone from .world.
Then what is a communist? Is it just a utopian identity or is it a practical activity? I don’t get why there is total rejection to this idea, from communists especially.
A communist, in my opinion, is someone that both agrees with the theory and tries to move closer to that status in practice. That could mean something like fighting neocolonialism all the way to being a teacher in a socialist country, trying to inform the next generation of communists.
Well thanks for the replies. I still can’t square “ideas only exist objectively in practice,” which is (IMO, but apparently nobody else’s) a critical insight from Marx; and “the theory” being something that is inherently unknowable except in the most abstract lines of comprehension. Communists literally never spend time theorizing what the future society will be like. I don’t understand how we are defined by something we can not understand concretely, as well as an activity that not only do we not engage with, but comrades will literally discourage, preferring to engage with actual struggle.
When I work with a lot of new people who want to get involved in practical work, the way to get them and keep them active, is not to describe the theoretical future, but connect them, their ideas especially, with the present. But when left to their own discussions, they often wax on about how things “should be”. So is it practical to connect with them on that level? Absolutely. Is it what makes me and my comrades “communist?” No, what makes us a communist is the work we do, not the dreams I dream. That “work” can be self-development, and it can be development of objective conditions, and at some point self development and development of objective conditions become one in the same.
But either I don’t understand something or other people don’t understand me, and I wouldn’t begin to know how to tell the difference. The other commenter was just debating me, so I’m not really any further along. But thanks again.
That’s why I bridged the fact that those opposing neocolonialism from a communist viewpoint are still communists, even though they are far removed from such a society. Building communism is what makes a communist, but that act of building is not the same as communism once built. Theory and practice must be united for someone to be a communist, simply theorizing is not communist, nor is vulgar practice without theory communist.
Okay so based on this, the part of my initial statement that was inaccurate would be “communism already exists” in that there are communists, and people building communism, but “communism” doesn’t exist because the conditions don’t exist for it yet. That is, as long as we are drawing lines between “communism” and something like communalism, which might refer to certain communal living experiments taking place in different parts of the world. Like Marx didn’t consider the Obshchina to be communist, but theorized that it could contain some pre-socialist potential (which bore out, at least partially, in the formation of the soviets.)
I wanted to consider communism as the practical work of communists. But I can see how that, at the very least, confuses the issue. And like the other responder pointed out, Marx was at least blended in his definition of communism, since he did spend time and energy describing “communist society.” So in order to be correct, I would have to prove a worthwhile theoretical break between “communism” and “communist society” which, at the very least, confuses people’s understanding more than it like addresses a practical shortcoming in our movements, and also seems to piss off other comrades.
If that tracks, I think I get where you’re coming from.
Yep, that’s pretty much it! There’s the process of building communism, we can call “communizing” if you prefer (though I kind of hate this as a verb), and then there’s “communism,” the eventual abolition of class society. The process exists even if the mode of production does not yet.
I think you’re getting at the concept of communism as a movement vs. communism as a mode of production. As a communist, I am committed to bringing about communism the mode of production, so in a way this process itself is “communism” from a certain view. However, this becomes very confusing for those not familiar, and so I try to keep things compartmentalized when discussing with those not as informed.
Socialism is chiefly a mode of production best seen as a transition between capitalism and communism. It’s the process of building the communist society where money, class, and the state have been abolished, where private property is no longer a thing. Drawing a distinction between the process of building something, and the object being built, is important. It’s the difference between the movement and the goal.
Yes but I think points of emphasis matter. Socialism may exist in some formal ways and some informal ways, but assuming it does, for example I know that you consider China to be at least partially/mostly socialist, the task is not for a socialist nation to become a communist nation, but for a socialist nation to become a socialist international, topple imperial international capitalist totality, and continually develop mass proletarian international productive forces, etc.,
So yes it is important to delineate “communist society” vs communist movement, in that the communist/proletarian movement actually exists, as it is the embodiment of the revolutionary potential of the working class; where “communist society” does not exist, and will not exist for a very long time.
So why define communism as something that it is not? Like its fine to imagine a better world, but it isn’t practical and it isn’t part of communism as it is inherently prefigurative. Communists concern ourseves with what exists, and what will exist (I’m not a huge fan of predictive Marxism, but knowing where we are headed is necessary for a successful political project) not what should exist.
Communism is post-socialist because it is what is compelled by the resolution of socialist contradictions. It’s useful to have a demarcation between wholly socialist countries like China, which necessarily have large numbers of contradictions that compel movement forward, with a future communist society that will be free of such contradictions like private property. Socialism isn’t something you can “partially be,” really, it’s a descriptor for the principal aspect of a society, what is rising within it. In that sense, it’s similar to what you’re getting at in socialism as a movement.
Also that’s not my donvote I don’t do that shit, just to be clear
Someone appears to be serially downvoting my recent comments, which is more obvious by the fact that replies to grad comments are safe. Probably someone from .world.
Correct as usual.
Figures, lol.
Then what is a communist? Is it just a utopian identity or is it a practical activity? I don’t get why there is total rejection to this idea, from communists especially.
A communist, in my opinion, is someone that both agrees with the theory and tries to move closer to that status in practice. That could mean something like fighting neocolonialism all the way to being a teacher in a socialist country, trying to inform the next generation of communists.
Well thanks for the replies. I still can’t square “ideas only exist objectively in practice,” which is (IMO, but apparently nobody else’s) a critical insight from Marx; and “the theory” being something that is inherently unknowable except in the most abstract lines of comprehension. Communists literally never spend time theorizing what the future society will be like. I don’t understand how we are defined by something we can not understand concretely, as well as an activity that not only do we not engage with, but comrades will literally discourage, preferring to engage with actual struggle.
When I work with a lot of new people who want to get involved in practical work, the way to get them and keep them active, is not to describe the theoretical future, but connect them, their ideas especially, with the present. But when left to their own discussions, they often wax on about how things “should be”. So is it practical to connect with them on that level? Absolutely. Is it what makes me and my comrades “communist?” No, what makes us a communist is the work we do, not the dreams I dream. That “work” can be self-development, and it can be development of objective conditions, and at some point self development and development of objective conditions become one in the same.
But either I don’t understand something or other people don’t understand me, and I wouldn’t begin to know how to tell the difference. The other commenter was just debating me, so I’m not really any further along. But thanks again.
That’s why I bridged the fact that those opposing neocolonialism from a communist viewpoint are still communists, even though they are far removed from such a society. Building communism is what makes a communist, but that act of building is not the same as communism once built. Theory and practice must be united for someone to be a communist, simply theorizing is not communist, nor is vulgar practice without theory communist.
Does that make sense?
Okay so based on this, the part of my initial statement that was inaccurate would be “communism already exists” in that there are communists, and people building communism, but “communism” doesn’t exist because the conditions don’t exist for it yet. That is, as long as we are drawing lines between “communism” and something like communalism, which might refer to certain communal living experiments taking place in different parts of the world. Like Marx didn’t consider the Obshchina to be communist, but theorized that it could contain some pre-socialist potential (which bore out, at least partially, in the formation of the soviets.)
I wanted to consider communism as the practical work of communists. But I can see how that, at the very least, confuses the issue. And like the other responder pointed out, Marx was at least blended in his definition of communism, since he did spend time and energy describing “communist society.” So in order to be correct, I would have to prove a worthwhile theoretical break between “communism” and “communist society” which, at the very least, confuses people’s understanding more than it like addresses a practical shortcoming in our movements, and also seems to piss off other comrades.
If that tracks, I think I get where you’re coming from.
Yep, that’s pretty much it! There’s the process of building communism, we can call “communizing” if you prefer (though I kind of hate this as a verb), and then there’s “communism,” the eventual abolition of class society. The process exists even if the mode of production does not yet.