Thinking about this discussion a lot the last few days. Talked about it broadly in cadre discussions too, as part of a larger discussion. I think your stance was more principled than mine, which had the effect of moving me away from sort of a fence sitting position toward a rightist, opportunist one. Should have been asking more questions if I wasn’t committed or as of yet unsure. Your opposition pushed me right where I belonged, which ultimately was indefensible. So, I’ll take it as a serious lesson. Thanks for standing firm, at least one of us wasn’t rationalizing them self into a fucking gutter
A big issue was all the prominent US “leftists” supporting Platner and handwaiving away all the extremely obvious red flags. They launched personal attacks against anyone who pushed back against Platner and called them things like Ultra’s. I’ve been banned from lemmy.world/c/progressivepolitics for calling out Platner as well. They really wanted to keep the illusion alive.
For example I like watching Breaking Points but I’ve learned from the Platner incident that US leftists can be hypercritical of things Israel does, but when it’s Americans themselves doing similar things, they just don’t care at all.
They call out the IDF soldiers war crimes and say they can’t be reformed but when you tell them the US army has basically done the same in all their invasions of the Middle East they get angry and make exucses for it. The American supremacy runs very deep.
One particularly noteworthy thing is that I asked people if they could find any instance of Platner saying he regretted his service, and they never could, but somehow this still didn’t shatter the illusion.
Hm. When my dad was in the Air Force, he got a confederate flag tattoo. According to legend, he fell in with a group of southern guys who told him it would make him “one of them.” Years later, he did get it covered, before getting a job where he worried it would be inappropriate. I think he had mixed feelings about it, but also he never like denounced racism either. In his old age, he def got hooked on Fox news for a while. I grew up in a place where racism doesn’t get challenged, where peoples experiences dont help them to grow beyond backwardness.
I love my dad. He’s not a bad person, and he is a really good person in many ways. He could be a better person, but there are def structural obstacles, like I said. He’s not a virulent, hateful racist, but he is kinda backward in many many ways.
I think when I heard of Platner’s tattoo, I sort of understood it the same way I understood this contradiction with my own father. I mean, Platner is younger than me, it wasn’t a fatherly identification (I think), but I could imagine my dad as a younger man when he still had the tattoo. Granted, dad never ran as a US Senator, but there was sort of learned blindness around it that got transferred to Platner. Dad never really denounced or regretted his time in the military, but he also never talked about it. I got the impression he had some trauma from it.
I think your points are really good here. Like being able to denounce the IDF as an “other” while being soft on American military probably has to do with either personal experiences like mine, or structural opportunism (let’s face it, they’re one in the same via hegemony). I think your question about “does he regret his service” is a really revealing insight and a good approach. It gives him a chance to be real about it, to “set the record straight” on a personal level. I think I also didn’t really make a distinction between his Blackwater work and his US military work. All of my friends who are veterans will denounce the US Military. My brother will tell anyone he hated his time in the military. Its not a huge ask for a leftist, or a moderate with progressive attitudes. I know so many people, and yeah veterans can just straight up become anti-imperialists. They do not have to become PMCs and work for companies that had to rebrand because of extensive war crimes. And they do not have to be okay with that years later, once they’ve “changed.”
I wish I had discussed this with local comrades earlier. When we were talking about Platner last night, one of my comrades brought up their experience with 2020 protests, and the boogaloo boys. They said that when the Boogs hit the scene there was a lot of controversy around their participation in protests, and many of them had “tattoos” that were red flags. Still, many people defended their participation, at the time. Years later, we know they were just Nazis doing like “activist left-moderate cosplay,” the evidence is overwhelming. My comrade just put it plain: people with Nazi tattoos have never been our allies, and they never will be.
I’m def reflecting on how twisted up and contradictory these conditions are. How my personal experiences were basically used against me. How I wasn’t concrete about what kind of things are forgiveable, and in what context. The structural contradiction around the US military led me to be less concrete about the facts, to just let myself be confused by very straightforward facts, and how it led to being wishy washy about the senate run of a rapist fascist, which led to me actually defending him when facing principles opposition.
But this is why I engage in debate. Not because I want to win or dominate in the marketplace of ideas, but because it is a form of self education. Anyway, I appreciate you engaging with my wrongheadedness. I know from experience it doesn’t always change peoples minds, but that’s why it was worth letting you know that in this case, I remember our discussion and recognize just how fucked up my position ended up being: not just that I was defending him but how I ended up defending him when I never had any intention of doing so.
I don’t know what your dad did in the military but basically every war after WW2 has been a giant genocide for US imperialism so bad news bears on that front
The American supremacist of propaganda runs deep and it’s very reinforced by society. A major problem of the Platner saga was the amount of mainstream US “leftist” content creators vehemetly ostricizing everyone who called it out.
This video by BadEmpanada on Graham Platner is an amazing watch and extremely relevant now. Even in the first 10 minutes it becomes extremely clear why Platner could never be trusted, but many influencers just danced around it. (That’s not to say there’s no personal responsibility, it’s up to us to critically think about the opinions presented by influencers and not just blindly believe them)
Okay you were absolutely right.
Props for admitting it. I’m betting we’re still only at the tip of the iceberg but luckily he’s gone now.
Thinking about this discussion a lot the last few days. Talked about it broadly in cadre discussions too, as part of a larger discussion. I think your stance was more principled than mine, which had the effect of moving me away from sort of a fence sitting position toward a rightist, opportunist one. Should have been asking more questions if I wasn’t committed or as of yet unsure. Your opposition pushed me right where I belonged, which ultimately was indefensible. So, I’ll take it as a serious lesson. Thanks for standing firm, at least one of us wasn’t rationalizing them self into a fucking gutter
A big issue was all the prominent US “leftists” supporting Platner and handwaiving away all the extremely obvious red flags. They launched personal attacks against anyone who pushed back against Platner and called them things like Ultra’s. I’ve been banned from lemmy.world/c/progressivepolitics for calling out Platner as well. They really wanted to keep the illusion alive.
Kavernacle describes it well in his most new video https://youtu.be/v8BfC26dffo?t=532
For example I like watching Breaking Points but I’ve learned from the Platner incident that US leftists can be hypercritical of things Israel does, but when it’s Americans themselves doing similar things, they just don’t care at all.
They call out the IDF soldiers war crimes and say they can’t be reformed but when you tell them the US army has basically done the same in all their invasions of the Middle East they get angry and make exucses for it. The American supremacy runs very deep.
One particularly noteworthy thing is that I asked people if they could find any instance of Platner saying he regretted his service, and they never could, but somehow this still didn’t shatter the illusion.
Hm. When my dad was in the Air Force, he got a confederate flag tattoo. According to legend, he fell in with a group of southern guys who told him it would make him “one of them.” Years later, he did get it covered, before getting a job where he worried it would be inappropriate. I think he had mixed feelings about it, but also he never like denounced racism either. In his old age, he def got hooked on Fox news for a while. I grew up in a place where racism doesn’t get challenged, where peoples experiences dont help them to grow beyond backwardness.
I love my dad. He’s not a bad person, and he is a really good person in many ways. He could be a better person, but there are def structural obstacles, like I said. He’s not a virulent, hateful racist, but he is kinda backward in many many ways.
I think when I heard of Platner’s tattoo, I sort of understood it the same way I understood this contradiction with my own father. I mean, Platner is younger than me, it wasn’t a fatherly identification (I think), but I could imagine my dad as a younger man when he still had the tattoo. Granted, dad never ran as a US Senator, but there was sort of learned blindness around it that got transferred to Platner. Dad never really denounced or regretted his time in the military, but he also never talked about it. I got the impression he had some trauma from it.
I think your points are really good here. Like being able to denounce the IDF as an “other” while being soft on American military probably has to do with either personal experiences like mine, or structural opportunism (let’s face it, they’re one in the same via hegemony). I think your question about “does he regret his service” is a really revealing insight and a good approach. It gives him a chance to be real about it, to “set the record straight” on a personal level. I think I also didn’t really make a distinction between his Blackwater work and his US military work. All of my friends who are veterans will denounce the US Military. My brother will tell anyone he hated his time in the military. Its not a huge ask for a leftist, or a moderate with progressive attitudes. I know so many people, and yeah veterans can just straight up become anti-imperialists. They do not have to become PMCs and work for companies that had to rebrand because of extensive war crimes. And they do not have to be okay with that years later, once they’ve “changed.”
I wish I had discussed this with local comrades earlier. When we were talking about Platner last night, one of my comrades brought up their experience with 2020 protests, and the boogaloo boys. They said that when the Boogs hit the scene there was a lot of controversy around their participation in protests, and many of them had “tattoos” that were red flags. Still, many people defended their participation, at the time. Years later, we know they were just Nazis doing like “activist left-moderate cosplay,” the evidence is overwhelming. My comrade just put it plain: people with Nazi tattoos have never been our allies, and they never will be.
I’m def reflecting on how twisted up and contradictory these conditions are. How my personal experiences were basically used against me. How I wasn’t concrete about what kind of things are forgiveable, and in what context. The structural contradiction around the US military led me to be less concrete about the facts, to just let myself be confused by very straightforward facts, and how it led to being wishy washy about the senate run of a rapist fascist, which led to me actually defending him when facing principles opposition.
But this is why I engage in debate. Not because I want to win or dominate in the marketplace of ideas, but because it is a form of self education. Anyway, I appreciate you engaging with my wrongheadedness. I know from experience it doesn’t always change peoples minds, but that’s why it was worth letting you know that in this case, I remember our discussion and recognize just how fucked up my position ended up being: not just that I was defending him but how I ended up defending him when I never had any intention of doing so.
I don’t know what your dad did in the military but basically every war after WW2 has been a giant genocide for US imperialism so bad news bears on that front
The American supremacist of propaganda runs deep and it’s very reinforced by society. A major problem of the Platner saga was the amount of mainstream US “leftist” content creators vehemetly ostricizing everyone who called it out.
This video by BadEmpanada on Graham Platner is an amazing watch and extremely relevant now. Even in the first 10 minutes it becomes extremely clear why Platner could never be trusted, but many influencers just danced around it. (That’s not to say there’s no personal responsibility, it’s up to us to critically think about the opinions presented by influencers and not just blindly believe them)