The San Francisco Bicycle Coalition weighed in with a pointed response, arguing that the state should be making it easier, not harder, to own and use e-bikes. Their senior organizer echoed the sentiment shared by many riders: the real confusion and danger comes from people not being able to tell the difference between a legal e-bike and an electric moped, not from the bikes themselves.
Brett Thurber, co-owner of a San Francisco e-bike shop, raised a practical industry concern about AB 1557. Restricting California’s speed limits below what manufacturers currently build for the U.S. market could push companies to skip California customers entirely, shrinking the supply available to local shops and consumers.
Yep. It is mainly an issue with a certain type of “e-bike”, namely so-called fat bikes, which are chunky low-ride bikes more resembling e-scooters, that have pedals mainly for show to circumvent rules. I don’t have exact numbers but it is estimated about half of them have the limiter removed and often a throttle in the handlebar installed. You can just order them from China or have it retrofitted and they go up to 45 kph.
For example, The Netherlands seized about 10k of them in 2024 alone.
They’re very dangerous as well. These numbers just show the cases where the ones who got injured were riders of a fat bike themselves, but often regular cyclists or pedestrians are hit by one of these and end up in the hospital.
Hold on, it does not say why those bikes were seized. It does not say anything on if they had no limiter, a thottle or if they were manufactured to go faster. But that is what I’m asking about, is the manufacturer/importer breaking the law or is it the consumer? Well, the consumer is either way for using it, but they could be just unaware. You know what I mean, it is different if you deliberately mess with the electronics to go faster.
The VVN spokesperson saying “the limiter can easily be removed” doesn’t convince me either, is that a huge problem or an edge case?
Is there any credible source on around half of fat-bikes have their limiters removed?
It kinda does. The roller benches they mention are the way they test it. If they go too fast they are illegal, either by not having the limiter in the first place or having it removed. Both happens, like I mentioned before.
Original article in Dutch.
This mentions they are fined €310 the first time and it is only seized the second time they get caught. So yeah, I’m pretty sure they know.
And here is the source for the more than half claim, although a small sample size.
I concede, they know when the bike is seized. But what I meant is that they could be unaware when they buy it, or at least claim that.
And if my translation is accurate, this other source also doesn’t answer if they alter the bike by getting someone to tune it, or if they were illegal to drive the moment they got their hands on the bike. It claims more than half were modified, but the cited report just says that they were faster than allowed. Bad headline!
Again, you said people buy a lawful vehicle and just know a guy that removes limiters. That is something I have trouble believing. I say, it’s far more likely that Amazon will sell a bike that naturally goes faster, like the 20mph ones that are legal right now in California, to anyone, and regions with stricter rules for e-bikes have people who don’t know or don’t care.
This distinction is important to me, because it shifts the blame from big manufacturers and warehouse corporations who knowingly sell illegal bikes to thousands, to some backyard garage that helped like 6 friends get more power. If the goal is to make our streets safer, going after the thousands will do way more. If truly half of people know someone to remove or remove their limiters themselves, it would be a different story, but all these sources say is that half of used fat bikes are illegal.
Faster than allowed is equal to modified, whether it never contained the limiter or it was retrofitted doesn’t matter so much. Both of it happens and removing limiters is big business for shady bike fixers atm. I never said it was 1 friend who helps six guys. The only e-bike you can legally buy is one that doesn’t go over 25 kph and doesn’t have a throttle. Except for a speedpedelec that goes much faster legally but requires a special helmet and a license plate like scooters / mopeds.
Who removed the limiter matters to me, you can think differently, but I’m not budging on this. Your link does claim that it is big business, but admits there are no figures for how many bikes are modified with these kits. Because no one is giving any numbers, I’m the one saying it could be 1 friend installing kits and removing limiters from 6 people in the whole Netherlands.
All I want is the numbers, because until then “people just pay a guy who knows a guy to remove the limiter” just rubs me the wrong way if it might as well be “companies illegally sell limitless bikes anyway”.
You may call it “not budging” I call it being obtuse. I’ve been going around looking for awebsites and articles and gave you a lot of links to start your own search from.
If you don’t want to believe something that’s fine but that doesn’t change the fact that it is true.
People know they are buying something illegal when they do. It is all over the news. And a lot of people get aftermarket kits or find a TikTok video to shut off the limiter themselves.
Yes Chinese companies are willingly selling illegal bikes, but also yes people en masse are buying them or getting the limiter removed, fully knowing that it is illegal.
How about you find me some numbers about how many people are fooled by companies into buying an illegal bike when they wanted so very badly to buy a legal one.
Oh, but I did find a (German) source for my question right now: “According to estimates by police and experts, five to ten percent of e-bikes in Germany are tuned.”
I am cautious of trusting a police union on this without any source, but it is at least something.
So now you can specify: “Less than 10% of e-bike riders remove or know a guy to remove the limiter”, since of course this was an estimate on tuning in general.
This doesn’t show anything. You show estimates, I showed facts based on data.
Maybe you should apply your own standards to whatever source you find and talk to me after vetting it. I can’t believe you have the audacity come up with an estimate after all you’ve put me through.
But you never showed anything that said it is true, you are the one believing without checking for the facts. I am the one saying: I don’t know if people actually go out of their way to tune their e-bikes. If you are sick of searching for sources, all you need to say is “I don’t know, I just feel like a lot of people get their limiter removed, I don’t have any sources on that.”
You cannot ask me to prove a negative, everyone knows that.
In the context of mandating a limiter being built in by law, it is important to distinguish between people who get the limiter removed, and people who buy bikes which never had a limiter, because group 1 spends effort or money to make their bike illegal, and the group 2 doesn’t spend to make their bike legal.
I agree, in the context of “people drive illegally fast”, this does not matter.
I did in fact. Many times. You just kept sealioning about it, which gets annoying fast.
The fact that you can’t prove a negative is also absolute and utter nonsense. A simple study design would be to ask people when they get the fine whether they knew about it or not. And you will get a lot of liars, so it would be heavily biased, but it might show that they didn’t know.
Null hypotheses also get proven all the time.
So please, at least try to put as much effort into it as I did. You owe me as much.