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Thankfully they lost. 56% voted yes, 44% voted no.
It compresses historical complexity going back millenia
it’s a very ancient idea
Historical illiteracy disguised as intellectualism. There is no better way to trivialize settler colonialism than to reduce it to an ancient, biblical conflict.
So much of west Asian politics and news gets reduced to supposed [innate] characteristics of peoples going back as long as their history. The latest I keep hearing is the attribution of Iran’s victory against the global hegemon to the inherent resilience and unity of Iranians. Otherwise, the “regime” would have to be something other than oppressive totalitarian ghouls and Islam can’t simply be the worst thing since the smell of sulphur. Folks starting to give props to Iran for standing up to the US feel the need to stop themselves and wash their hands of what actually exists there, limiting praise to some intangible.
It truly is. Back in the 1910s westerners thought of the near east as a decadent homosexual crack den with noble savages gallivanting through the desert. Nowadays, it’s an enteral place of misery and oppression with a singular focus on destroying the left, funnily enough still seen as sexually dangerous, though of a different flavor.
I’m listening to this right now. I’m twenty minutes in and I gotta say: so what? Does the speaker ever explain why that matters or are we just supposed to infer that, because Zionism didn’t originate with Jews, that it doesn’t matter that Jews are realizing it?
because Zionism didn’t originate with Jews, that it doesn’t matter that Jews are realizing it?
I thought that you knew better than to indulge in pointless ethnocentrism but I see now that I was wrong about that.
Israel is a Jewish ethnostate and Zionism is the movement that created and maintains that ethnostate.
Denying this is ethnocentrism. Acknowledging and condemning it is not.
I… don’t follow? Yeah, not literally every single Jewish person is involved in the colonization of Palestine and a brave few are even opposed. And yeah, the Zionist project was constructed in lockstep with Christians too.
But how is it wrong to say that Jews are realizing Zionism? I sincerely can’t wrap my head around what’s pointless about that statement. I know that it’s inaccurate to conflate Zionism and Judaism, but let’s not go too far in the opposite direction and insist that they’re unrelated, as if the troops slaughtering Palestinians aren’t Jewish, as if the colonizers stealing their homes aren’t Jewish, as if Jewish supremacy weren’t codified into the basic laws of Israel.
Sigh… okay, I’ll try to explain this patiently:
An oppressor’s nationality or ethnicity has very little relevance in the grand scheme in things. Were you to ask a Palestinian if it would make any difference to her if her oppressors were Romani or Armenian or Assyrian or Irish or Martian or whatever, I am pretty sure that her answer would be ‘no’. And, as you pointed out, there are good folk who coincidentally share the ethnicity or nationality of her oppressors, and they would prefer not to be associated with those oppressors in any way. Therefore, there is no need to emphasise an oppressor’s ethnicity or nationality any more than necessary.
Yes, sometimes we should acknowledge an oppressor’s nationality or ethnicity (if only to avoid confusion), but there is no point in emphasizing it either. That is why, in my topics about the Fascist era, I usually replace most instances of ‘German’ and ‘Italian’ with ‘[Fascist]’, and most instances of ‘Japanese’ with ‘[Imperial]’, because the problem with the Fascists and the Imperialists was not that they were German, Italian, or Japanese. The problem is that they oppressed innocents. In the same way, when betalking Palestine’s occupation, I prefer to replace ‘Israeli’ or ‘Jewish’ with political terms like ‘[settler]’, ‘[colonialist]’ or ‘[Zionist]’; the willful settlers are our enemies, not Jewish people.
Of course, there are contexts where this focus would not work well. For example, goyische settlers cannot apply for citizenship as easily as Jewish ones can, so vaguely specifying that ‘settlers’ automatically qualify for citizenship of the occupation would be too misleading. Aside from exceptional technicalities like this, however, emphasising an oppressor’s ethnicity or nationality is unnecessary and can be misleading in a dangerous way. We don’t want to risk anybody conflating Jewishness with oppression, since that could make Jewish critics of Zionism targets for harassment.
So no, in the end the identity of the oppressors realising the Zionist project doesn’t matter much, just like it hardly mattered that the oppressors realizing the Crusades were European Catholics. There are certainly exceptional circumstances where specifying somebody’s background is necessary for explaining things, but such technicalities are unlikely to be of immediate interest to the victims. That is why I said that you were indulging in ethnocentrism, because your reply made ethnicity seem more relevant than it truly was.
I appreciate you typing this out because now I see where you’re coming from. I can respect your dedication to being precise with terminology, but I don’t agree that ethnicity and ideology are as separate as you’re asserting.
What I mean is that the people in our communities heavily influence our political views, especially when we’re growing up. Ideology is in large part transmitted culturally. To omit the ethnicity of the oppressors in this situation is to turn a blind eye to the problem because of how closely they’re tied.
Judaism is very relevant to the conversation because Jewish culture inculcates people to be Zionist. Jewish kids are taught to consider a settler colony as their homeland, to believe that they’re owed Palestinian land as birthright and to view themselves as divinely superior to others. It’s a rite of passage for Jews to go on an all-expense-paid trip to the colony. Land sales are even hosted directly in synagogues.
How are we supposed to defeat Zionism without addressing how it’s reproduced culturally? Do you think that liberation is possible if Jewish communities remain unchanged?
Discussing oppressors as if they were detached from the conditions that created them is not only idealist but unactionable. We must take into account the specifics of how Zionism manifests in order to effectively resist it. It’s not ethnocentrist, overemphasizing, or misleading to focus on the people responsible for keeping the movement alive.
Having watched the film Israelism (which I recommend seeing, by the way), I can’t deny that modern mainstream Jewish cultures are polluted with and perpetuate Herzlianism, and we are more than justified in protesting Zionist establishments. Even so, we should be cautious when talking about ethnicity, as we don’t want anybody to get the mistaken impression that ethnicity is the origin of oppression.
I understand why you link ethnicity with culture, though; they tend to go hand in hand. Likewise, the number of anticolonial Jews is much smaller than it should be. Thus, I can see why using broad, unqualified language like ‘Jewish culture’ and ‘Jewish communities’ seems both accurate and harmless to you. That said, I myself would still feel very uncomfortable resorting to such unqualified language or thinking since anticolonial Jews are important to me (even if their number be nowhere near large enough), and using overgeneralizations would needlessly erase or trivialize their presence. So while I can grasp where you are coming from, I would still feel too uncomfortable shrugging at the minority of anticolonial Jews and broadly blaming ‘Jewish culture’ or ‘Jewish communities’ for Palestinians’ suffering.
In any case, I feel that I should apologize for hastily dismissing your question by cryptically accusing you of ethnocentrism. These last several days here have been frustrating for me; it feels like other users are just ganging up on me, and I have been losing my patience as a result; I took the easy way out by snapping at you. Nonetheless, I am trusting that you are replying to me in good faith and I regret that I wrote you off earlier like that.
Hey, this is a really late reply because I’ve been busy lately but I don’t want to leave you hanging. It’s all good, no worries.
To explain my perspective a little bit more, I’m tired of the real-life evasiveness that characterizes discussions of Israel. It’s become more tolerable lately to voice support for Palestine and yet it’s still strictly forbidden to discuss who the settlers are. I don’t think it’s controversial to anyone to say that a religion can mobilize its followers to commit atrocities, but when that religion is Judaism, it’s like suddenly the perpetrators are unmentionable and you’re a bigot for even making the connection. This is the first crybully genocide where the colonizers are a protected class whose reputation is valued over and above the very lives of the people they’re murdering. And I know that Zionism is broader than this, that Christians are heavily responsible too, that geopolitical and economic forces are also foundational, disclaimer, disclaimer, whatever.
Ugh, sorry, I’m not saying this to attack you or your position or start up another argument. I know that you’re not selective with your words because you’re trying to be evasive. Your dedication to academic rigor is noble, even, and your posts about history are a great resource. It’s just that, to make a comparison, people cast aspersions on Americans all the time, without qualifiers, even on this forum, even despite the fact that many of our comrades are American. I personally don’t see this as equating ethnicity with oppression. I can get behind phrasing things differently for the sake of not sounding like a right-winger, but after all that’s happened, I don’t see the need to be super tempered either. Anyway, I’m grateful that you took the time to reply to me even when you thought I was being racist. “Discussions” on here are so often just people throwing snarky quips back and forth so it’s kinda flattering that you cared to teach me even though you were being swarmed with dislikes (I haven’t voted on any of your comments one way or the other btw).
We are three years into a holocaust perpetrated in the name of Jewish supremacists. I truly have a hard time understanding how this is different from yelling “white lives matter” during 2020 BLM.
As far as I can tell, an equivalent would be more like if (a few) BLM protesters were saying “fuck Europeans” and then someone is making an argument that doing so may not be a productive way of dealing with the oppression and systemic violence beyond the basics of recognizing that yes, what is now considered “white” settlers came over from Europe to what is now called “The United States”.
In reference to Water Bowl Slime’s post, I am curious though for an analysis that investigates how exactly diaspora Jewish culture reproduces zionism and enforces it in Jewish circles. Within israel itself, I’m assuming most of the reproduction of it is stuff that is standard for settler colonialism with some Jewish characteristics overlaid, but that could be wrong. It’s also worth noting that Jewish diaspora in the US have allies to be found in settler-colonialism who are not Jewish and likely have learned things from them, in terms of how to reproduce it and enforce it in the culture. But again, a detailed investigation into the how may prove enlightening. One reason I see to make sure we’re emphasizing the contribution of settler-colonialism itself as a broader read of history, is to avoid aiding the narrative that the US is somehow “taken over” by AIPAC, as if its support for israel is beyond the control even of its power brokers. When the reality is that two settler-colonial entities working together makes perfect sense and we should tear at the fakery of liberalism whenever it tries to pretend like some decorum and lip service means the US has moved past colonialism.
The Nazis explicitly made it clear that they were creating lebensraum for the volk, and you argue we should ignore this aspect entirely as it may make people “associate the (volk) with oppression?”
I’ve seen you post the same idea multiple times, but never with your own words. What’s the point?
Are you trying to erase the Jewishness inherent in Zionism and Israel? Because people, Evangelical, Jewish, liberal, fascist, who benefit from Israel’s existence aren’t going to be swayed by this. So if the point is to deflect claims of anti-semitism away from the left, this isn’t going to work. Because the people making claims of anti-semitism on the left aren’t claiming so in good faith.
G-d, is this another attempt to deflect from the importance of Zionist Gentiles? Why is nearly everybody here suddenly giving them a free pass?
Literally nobody here is giving them a free pass. I acknowledged them in the comment you are responding to.
Can you answer anything about my question? By your response, I can only assume that your point is to deny the Jewish supremacy at the core of Zionism and Israel.
Look, I gave you historical research proving that Zionism is Evangelical to refute the claim that it originates in Judaism. If you read this sample that the original poster provided then you could have easily inferred that connexion on your own. Now stop bothering me.
That is not an answer. It seems you will continue avoiding the question, so no loss to me lol
Anarcho-Bolshevik isn’t on trial here. They are explaining to you precisely which screenshot in the OP they were referencing with their original post. You asked “what’s the point?” and they gave you the context for what their intended point was. Personally, I’m kind of lost as to what warranted the suspicion in the first place. The whole thing feels like a lot of talking past each other.
If you ignore all context and half of what I wrote then yeah I could see why you would be lost.
thanks for the link. I’m sorry for what’s happened to you lately. May Allah give you patience.
“Zionism” means different things to different people…
It’s a very encient idea. <Bible quote>
Oh ffs, it’s the postmodernist brainworms again. Zionism is not, in fact, a very ancient idea, but a toddler young political movement by historical standards, that weaponizes religion. And George over there provides an oblivious example! It is plenty specific and racist af.
Even Tucker Carlson of all people pushed back on that nonsense.
Carlson seems to have morphed into a 20th century right winger in the last few years. That is to say he still kinda cares about truth and has something resembling convictions, however misinformed.
Under no circumstances do you have to hand it to him, but it’s better than liberal disregard for reality at any rate.
I would never say that Tucker cares about truth or has convictions, I think he’s a sleezebag through and through. But, my read on him is that he’s more “conscious,” for lack of a better word, than some liberals. He’s crafty and capable of thinking outside the box, even of thinking critically, which liberals generally aren’t. But, he is an enemy, and he uses that understanding to advance right-wing aims, and so those traits only makes him more dangerous.
We can’t underestimate the right’s ability to adapt. That was how the alt-right was so successful, because people were so used to thinking of the right as these stuffy old puritanical moral guardians. But the alt-right realized that that was always just a pretense and not necessary to promote right-wing ideas, that with how conditions had shifted, that image had become a liability rather than an asset.
Tucker is adaptive in the same way. He sees the writing on the wall, that public sentiment is turning against Zionism, and that the right’s association with Zionism is becoming a liability. He is trying to stay one step ahead and laying the groundwork for people’s frustration with Israel to be redirected to the right, or at least to have a place on the right, to not be a deal-breaker that pushes people left.
Eh, we also shouldn’t overestimate them. And that especially applies to the talking heads. Presupposing that everything rightoids do is a conscious scam is how we end up being accused of conspiratorial thinking, when Marxist analysis of capitalism simply concludes that even well intentioned efforts will go to waste because the system is fundamentally exploitative.
It’s not conspiratorial, it’s just my personal read on one guy. When I look at him, I see a snake who knows exactly what he’s doing. That’s just my judge of character, it’s possible I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:










