Aequitas

10

Except that the “Zionist infestation” is a fictional construct in this case. db0 is fighting ghosts.

1

Please try to avoid politico. It belongs to the right-wing conservative Springer publishing house (Axel Springer SE), which is trying to become a European Fox News.

Aequitas @feddit.org 2d ago

Killing innocent people is never a legitimate defense. Actually, it is no defense at all, because these innocent people did nothing to Gaza or Hamas.

An anarchist instance that chooses an authoritarian, Islamist, and reactionary organization as the hill on which it wants to die. It makes you want to bang your head against the table. What I see this much more as is a case of double standards. Because the IDF, which also kills innocent people, makes the same argument. "Oh, it's just defense."

You still haven't explained what is Zionist about calling Hamas Terrorist. You simply don't like my opinion about it, so you stick that label on it. It's intellectually lazy because it saves you from having to argue and allows you to rely solely on virtue signaling.

6

Aequitas @feddit.org 2d ago

What's wrong with calling Hamas terrorists? They have randomly but deliberately killed innocent people. How else would you describe that?

8

Aequitas @feddit.org 2d ago

What do you consider to be an example of “obvious Zionism” on feddit?

11

Aequitas @feddit.org 2d ago

Unfortunately, dbzer0 has not yet provided a consistent definition of Zionism, which is why they always resort to the broadest possible interpretation. As a result, it is essentially impossible to differentiate between the IDF and feddit.org (or at least their ideology), which is obviously stupid, but has the advantage of simplicity. One can simply throw the word around and everyone nods dutifully.

Aequitas @feddit.org 2d ago

That's not true. A lot of users have spoken out against defederation. Just look at the top comments here. There is no way you can speak of a “consensus” as the admin of dbzer0 claims.
It's completely ridiculous to accuse feddit.org of being Zionist because particularly militant anti-Zionist forms (“Death to Israel”) are not allowed there. This line of argument is inconclusive and makes the classic conversion fallacy. But more importantly, most people on feddit.org are very critical of Israel. For example, I never read that anyone seriously denies that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Even if it did happen, it would be criticized immediately. They probably just don't do so with the radicalism that is represented on dbzer0. Instead of concluding that there is at least a large overlap here, that the people on feddit.org are not only not allies, but in fact enemies (“fascists”), is so ridiculous that I can hardly believe that this is being advocated by adults. Yes, there have always been these stupid left-wing purity contests. But I think this reaches a new level of stupidity here.

I can't stand this anymore. There are actual fascists who want to destroy both the users of feddit.org and dbzer0. They won't care how purely anti-Zionist the person in question is. They'll hang us all equally if they get the chance. But instead of uniting, we are creating new hostilities between us.

2

Aequitas @feddit.org 5d ago

@AntiBullyRanger@ani.social @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com

You said that the possibility of an interpretation of "Death to X" other than yours would be bad faith. But here you can see that this is not the case. Yes, I know this guy is just a sad edgelord. But because everyone knows that this interpretation above also exists, everyone also knows that it is ambiguous. It's meant to be. Pointing this out is not bad faith, but simply describes why the sentence is also rejected by many on the left.

4

Aequitas @feddit.org 5d ago

you’re saying “death to Israel/America” in general somehow has islamist roots

Once again, you are accusing me of something I neither said nor intended.

No shit they want people dead

So why all this stupid hostility? Then you agree with me that when Islamists say “Death to America,” they don't just mean the American state. My argument all along is that the phrase “Death to X” is ambiguous, is used ambiguously, and prompts different people to take different actions. To be honest, I don't know what there is to discuss. Even here in this thread, you see people who agree with the “death to US Americans” interpretation rather than "Dissolve the US". The same applies to “Death to Israel.” Hamas, for example, also does not follow the interpretation that you would like to consider the only sensible one when it kills innocent civilians in Israel. If that's not literal, then I don't know what is. I provide empirical evidence that suggests a literal interpretation, while you simply post links that demonstrate that there are other interpretations as well. Which precisely underscores my argument of ambiguity. Do you just want to burn straw men here?

“Death to Israel” will always be ambiguous. It is a slogan intended to provoke. At least when it is used by Muricans (or other westeners). And then tears about the evil and intentionally wrong interpretations of the other side are shed when the provocation succeeds, which was the plan from the outset. It's the same tactic you hear from Karoline Leavitt every other day. Here in Sauerkrautland, the fascists are doing the same thing, of course. But it's a pathetic tactic for leftists. That's why you mostly hear it from internet edglords or armchair revolutionaries.

6

Aequitas @feddit.org 5d ago

Calm down and don't accuse me of things I haven't said dummy. Of course Israel is committing genocide and of course the USA is a criminal country. Where did I give the impression that this wasn't the case?

And no, Islamists want people dead, including innocent civilians, as evidenced by their actions. I was just trying to express this in a less confrontational way for small-minded people like you. Even if one considers attacks on innocent civilians in Israel, the USA or Europe to be justified, which is disgusting enough, Islamists also kill innocent people in the Middle East. Be it in Rojava, as was the case a few weeks ago, or anywhere else. How pathetic can you be to side with these people because of your justified rejection of Israel or the USA?

The fact that you call me a racist also shows me that you still cannot distinguish between religion, origin and ideology. So kindly shut the fuck up.

2

Aequitas @feddit.org 5d ago

so civilization doesn’t collapse from rapid population decline

Would that really be a bad thing?

14

Aequitas @feddit.org 6d ago

Do you read the fine print for “Deutschland verrecke” or “Death to America” as well, or does that only apply when it comes to Israel?

Tell me: when Islamists in Iran, Afghanistan, or Iraq chant “Death to America,” do they simply mean the dissolution of the United States? Of course not. They mean the death of everything American, including American people. At least, that's how I've always interpreted it. If you think that it's really just an anarchist critique of US statehood, I would find that remarkable. “Deutschland verrecke”, on the other hand, is a phrase used almost exclusively by Germans. Context matters, as I wrote above.

you get confronted with this on a fairly regular basis

I don't. And I'm in a lot of English subs.

I refuse to believe that they don’t know this by now

Even if that were true, which I doubt, there is still the possibility that some people will not accept your interpretation, but one of the others. The sentence could, for example, come straight from the neo-Nazi scene. And since you don't know who is behind a post on the internet, ambiguities lead to problems. Especially when one of the interpretations calls for the death of people.

because the rest of the international Left understands just fine what this slogan means.

However, Feddit.org is not a left-wing, but rather a general instance like lemmy.world. I am also relatively certain that the sentence would be moderated away on lemmy.world as well.

Nobody claims that this is the only way

Yes, your previous poster claims that deleting and prohibiting such posts is “policing anti-apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state.” This ignores the fact that objective, unambiguous and clear criticism is perfectly acceptable and, in my experience, even represents the majority opinion (which says a lot on a general instance). To conclude from the rejection of “Death to Israel” that Zionism is supported here is not only logically incorrect. It is intellectually lazy, exaggerated, malicious, and, yes, childish.

16

Aequitas @feddit.org 1w ago

Yeah, we’re not going to entertain your denial of Judaistic apartheism.

American nationalists have their “God's own country,” and radical Christians interpret the Bible in exactly the same way as nationalist from Israel interpret the Torah. I don't think I need to quote you any relevant passages from the Bible. ISIS, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Iranian theocracy do the same thing with Islam. Indian nationalists do the same with Hinduism. The problem here is political ideology, not religion per se. If you think that Jews are evil because of their religious background, then you are indeed crossing the line into antisemitism, and we will not agree. If you criticize Israel's political ideology, Zionism, that's completely different and legitimate. But just like religious nationalism in the US, Iran, or India, it has nothing to do with the respective religion. It only serves to legitimize it. To disregard this is either stupidity or malice.

it’s not. We made this pretty clear here, and elsewhere.

It's not a good sign for a political slogan if you have to read the fine print to get the right interpretation. You're also overestimating how many people are actually confronted with something like this. That's why very few people will have heard about the clarification of this slogan. This in turn leads to provocations, overly emotional debates, misunderstandings, and insults. I can understand why the mods delete such content tbh.

you want to ambiguoize a simple phrase by enforcing an unjust law your German state as your justification

what are you talking about? I am not enforcing shit. I have no power anywhere. I just want to explain why it's ridiculous to accuse people of Zionism because they have a problem with this phrase. Why do you demand the benefit of the doubt for yourself, but are not willing to grant it to others?

We are blatantly accusing your instance of policing anti apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state

If you think that the only way to speak out against a current active genocidal state is to write “Death to Israel,” then that's not just pathetic, it's childish.

I don't think it helps to keep explaining to you that it is perfectly possible to speak out against the genocide of Israel on feddit.org, that this is even the majority opinion there. This is just one of those shitty left-wing purity contests that exist on other issues as well, which have been weakening the left for decades.

18

Aequitas @feddit.org 1w ago

Context is important here, in my opinion. It is one thing to claim that Judaism is worse than other religions in this regard (which it is not, as evangelicals or ISIS prove, for example), and quite another to accuse religions in general of a tendency toward apartheid. The problem is not Judaism, but Israel's political ideology. It would make no difference if the Israelis were Sikh, Shinto, or Zoroastrian. Furthermore, most Jews do not live in Israel, but in the US.

“Death to Israel” is ambiguous. It can be read, for example, as “Death towards Israel” and, of course, as “Death to the Israelis” or, as you mean it, as “Death to the state of Israel.” The fact that you have to explain what exactly is meant illustrates this very clearly. And I think that the slogan is deliberately ambiguous. It is intended to provoke and reliably achieves its goal through this ambiguity. It would be easy to resolve the contradiction by adding “state of.” And if one is really concerned with objectivity and not emotions, one could also omit the word ‘death’ and just say “Dissolve Israel.” No ambiguity but delivers the message you want. Doesn't sound as impressive and martial tho.

It is simply exaggerated and intellectually lazy to accuse Feddit.org of Zionism, where any criticism of Israel would be suppressed. Recently, there was a discussion on feddit about giving the Israelis a piece of Bavaria and returning Israel to the Palestinians. It was not banned or moderated away.

28

Aequitas @feddit.org 1w ago

I would say that “fuck Bibi's ethnostate” is not a problem at all. “Fuck apartheid religions” could be a problem if it criticizes Jews as a group and not the ideology of Zionism. The same applies to right-wingers who accuse all Muslims of being terrorists because they are part of a terrorist religion, instead of limiting this to the ideology of Islamism. In general, I would say that it makes a very, very big difference whether one directs one's criticism at Judaism or Jews, or at Israel and Israelis.

What is repeatedly discussed is whether moderating “Death to Israel” (or similar) and banning corresponding users is an expression of a Zionist ideology on the part of the feddit moderators. To this I would say: even if the author means Israel as a state and is not calling for the death of Israelis, he is aware of and accepts the possibility of the latter interpretation and its ambiguity. To interpret the moderation of this as Zionism is, in my opinion, exaggerated and malicious. It also empties the term "Zionism" of its analytical content.

37

Aequitas @feddit.org 1w ago

I don't know guys. Feddit is a general instance, so there are also Libs here and probably even a few Zionists. But my impression is that most people are very critical of Israel.

Aequitas

@ Aequitas @feddit.org

Posts

16
Comments

186
Joined

2 yr. ago

Aequitas

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Look how much Canadians hate the United States now

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

Dbzero has Defederated from Feddit.org following its Governance post about the later's "Zionist Bar Problem"

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

Our duty

Our duty

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

Millionen aus Katar: Wer finanziert die Sicherheitskonferenz?

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

When politics touch the Fediverse: feddit.org edition

GKV planen Kürzung von psychotherapeutischen Leistungen um 10%.

CDU gegen die Realität

Öltanker aus Venezuela: USA beschlagnahmen Tanker unter russischer Flagge

Is there a Twitter alternative in the Fediverse where you can sort your timeline?

Bayern vergibt Milliardenauftrag an Microsoft ohne Ausschreibung. Deutliche Kritik aus der Zivilgesellschaft

Palantir boss calls for public hangings to show 'masculine leadership'

Physiker: "Die Möglichkeiten des Verbrennungsmotors sind längst ausgereizt"

Denkfabrik R21 bereitet Zusammenarbeit von CDU und AfD vor. Jens Spahn lässt sie mit Steuermillionen fördern.

Bald Neuwahlen?

Merz kündigt für Koalitionsausschuss am Abend Einigung auf weitgehende Lockerung von Verbrenner-Aus an

Showing you a color you’ve never seen before.

Netanjahu ordnet "intensive Angriffe" im Gazastreifen an

Why is it that my sister and I have different latest kernel versions, even though we both have Linux Mint 22.2 Cinnamon?

Baden-Württemberg: Öffnungszeiten von SB-Supermärkten am Sonntag sollen von Gottesdienstzeiten abhängen