(00:32:21)Norman FinkelsteinOkay. There’s a real problem here, and it’s been a problem I’ve had over many years of reading your work. Apart perhaps from, as grandchild, I suspect nobody knows your work better than I do. I’ve read it many times, not once, not twice, at least three times everything you’ve written. And the problem is, it’s a kind of quicksilver. It’s very hard to grasp a point and hold you to it. So we’re going to try here to see whether we can hold you to a point. And then you argue with me the point. I have no problem with that. Your name please.

Steven BonnellSteven Bonnell.

(00:44:48)Mouin RabbaniAnd the second, I think, impediment to that view is that long before the UN General Assembly convened to address a question of Palestine, Palestinian and Arab and other leaders as well had been warning ad infinitum that the purpose of the Zionist movement is not just to establish a Jewish state, but to establish an exclusivist Jewish state. And that transfer forced displacement was fundamental to that project. And just responding to…. Sorry, was it-

Steven BonnellYeah, Steven.

Mouin Rabbani… Bonnell or Donnel?

Steven BonnellBonnell, yeah.

Mouin RabbaniWith a B?

Steven MorelliYeah.

(01:19:03)Steven BonnellWell, yeah, can I actually respond to that? Because I think this is emblematic of the entire conversation. I watched a lot of Norm’s interviews and conversations in preparation for this, and I hear Norm will say this over and over and over again. “I only deal in facts. I don’t deal in hypotheticals. I only deal in facts. I only deal in facts.” And that seems to be the case, except for when the facts are completely and totally contrary to the particular point you’re trying to push. The idea that Jews would’ve out of hand rejected any state that had Arabs on it or always had a plan of expulsion is just betrayed by the acceptance of the ’47 partition plan.

Norman FinkelsteinI don’t think you understand politics. Did I just say that there is a chasm that separates your ideology from the limits and constraints imposed by politics and reality?

(01:22:48)Steven BonnellYou can say that, but in this case, the facts betray you. There was no Arab acceptance of anything that would’ve allowed for a Jewish state to exist, number one, and number two, I think that it’s entirely possible, given how things happen after a war, that this exact same conflict could have played out and an expulsion would’ve happened without any ideology at play. There was a people that disagreed on who had territorial rights to a land, there was a massive war afterwards, and then a bunch of their friends invaded after to reinforce the idea that the Jewish people in this case couldn’t have a state. There could have been a transfer regardless.

Norman FinkelsteinAnything could have been, but that’s not what history is about.

(01:24:08)Norman FinkelsteinOkay. But we have to recognize that from nearly the beginning, for perfectly obvious reasons having nothing to do with antisemitism, anti-Westernism, anti-Europeanism, but because no people that I am aware of would voluntarily cede its country-

Steven BonnellExcept for all the people that sold land voluntarily.

Norman FinkelsteinYou can perfectly understand Native American resistance to Euro-colonialism. You can perfectly well understand it without any anti-Europeanism, anti-whiteism, anti-Christianism. They didn’t want to cede their country to invaders. That’s completely understandable.

(01:26:55)Norman FinkelsteinI looked and looked and looked for evidence of this antisemitism as being a chief motor of Arab resistance to Zionism. I didn’t see it.

Steven BorrellDid he make that claim?

Benny MorrisI don’t remember the word chief. It’s one of the elements.

Steven BonnellYeah. It’s very binary thinking when it comes to-

Norman FinkelsteinBinary?

Steven BorrellYes, binary.

Norman FinkelsteinPlease, don’t give me this postmodernism ‘binary’.

(01:59:24)Steven BonnellBut the problem is you’re saying that Husseini was his influence… You’re saying the move [inaudible 01:59:28]-

Norman FinkelsteinI don’t even understand, of all the crimes you want to ascribe to the Palestinian people, trying to blame them directly-indirectly, indirectly, or indirectly, three times the move for the Nazi Holocaust is completely lunatic.

Steven BarelliHold on. Wait, he’s not blaming them for the Holocaust. He’s saying that from the perspective-

Norman FinkelsteinOf course he-

Benny MorrisNo, no, no.

Steven BonnellWait, wait, wait, no, he’s saying that from the perspective of Jews in the region, Palestinians would’ve been part of the-

Norman FinkelsteinThat’s not what he’s saying.

Steven BonnellThat is exactly what he said.

Norman FinkelsteinYou have not read him. I’ve read him.

Steven BonnellYou’ve read him and you don’t understand him.

Norman FinkelsteinYou’ve read-

Steven MorelliHe’s right here.

Norman FinkelsteinBelieve me, I’m a lot more literate than you, Mr. Barelli.

Steven BonnellI’m going to believe the guy that wrote the stuff.

Norman FinkelsteinYou read what Wikipedia said.

Steven WeasellyThat’s great, and you don’t even speak Hebrew and you call yourself an Israeli historian.

Norman Finkelstein[inaudible 02:00:11].

Steven Bonnell[inaudible 02:00:10] different grounds.

Mouin RabbaniIf I can just respond to you-

Steven BonnellNo, no, I’m just saying that there were two tricks-

Norman FinkelsteinYou said nothing, as you always do.

(02:16:29)Norman Finkelstein850, fine. So I never said that, but then I said, “No, we don’t know exactly how they were killed.” But 800 civilians killed, no, 850, no question there. And I also said on repeated occasions, there cannot be any doubt, in my opinion as of now with the available evidence, that Hamas was responsible for significant atrocities, and I made sure to include the plural.

Steven BonnellThere’s a lot of tricky language being employed here. Do you think of the 850-

Norman FinkelsteinThere’s nothing tricky. It’s called attaching value to words and not talking like a motormouth. I am very careful about qualifying because that’s what language is about.

(02:39:39)Steven BonnellCan I respond to something relating to that, the Lebanon War? I looked at the book that he got this from and what the quote was from. It sounds cold to say it, but war is tragic and civilians die. There is no war that this has not happened in, in the history of all of humankind. The statement that Israel might take care not to target civilians is not incompatible with a diary entry from someone who said they saw civilians getting killed. I think that sometimes we do a lot of weird games when we talk about international humanitarian law or laws that govern conflict, but we say things like, civilians dying is a war crime, or civilian homes or hospitals getting destroyed is necessarily a war crime, or is necessarily somebody intentionally targeting civilians without making distinctions between military targets or civilian ones.

I think that when we analyze different attacks or when we talk about the conduct of the military, it’s important to understand, prospectively from the unit of analysis of the actual military committing the acts, what’s happening and what are the decisions being made rather than just saying retrospectively, “Oh, well, a lot of civilians died. Not very many military people died, comparatively speaking, so it must have been war crimes,” especially when you’ve got another side, I’ll fast-forward to Hamas, that intentionally attempts to induce those same civilian numbers, because Hamas is guilty of any war crime that you would potentially accuse. And this is according to the Amnesty International, people that Norm loves to cite, Hamas is guilty of all of these same war crimes, of them failing to take care of their civilian population, of them essentially utilizing human shields to try to fire rockets, free from attacks-

Norman FinkelsteinEssentially?

Steven BonnellEssentially, yes. I’m just saying that, essentially, as in terms of how international law defines it and not how Amnesty International defines it. But Amnesty International describes times of human shielding, but they don’t actually apply the correct international legal standard-

Norman FinkelsteinYou don’t know what’s the correct international law-

Steven BonnellI know absolutely-

Norman FinkelsteinYou haven’t a clue-

Steven BarelliNo, I absolutely do-

Norman FinkelsteinYou haven’t a clue because you can’t find it on Wikipedia. You can’t find it on Wikipedia-

Steven BorelliBut I’m just saying… Believe it or not, Norm, the entire Geneva Convention is all on Wikipedia. It’s a wonderful website.

(02:44:31)Mouin RabbaniYou know better. You know better-

Benny MorrisNo, I don’t know better. You don’t know Israeli pilots, that’s the problem-

Norman FinkelsteinThank God.

Benny MorrisNo, you don’t know Israeli pilots-

Norman FinkelsteinI know, thank God.

(02:44:59)Norman FinkelsteinNo, they saw the sides, but let’s see the side-

Steven BonnellOh, I know what he’s quoting, correct, but you’ve lied about this particular instance in the past. Those kids weren’t just on the beaches as often stated in articles. Those kids were literally coming out of a previously identified Hamas compound that they had operated from. They literally-

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Borelli-

Steven BonnellYou could Google it, Mr. Finkel-stinker- ??? good one i guess if you're fucking five

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Borelli, with all due respect, you’re such a fantastic moron, it’s terrifying. That wharf was filled with journalists. There were scores of journalists. That was an old fisherman’s shack. What are you talking about? It’s so painful to listen to this idiocy-

Steven BonnellAnd to be clear, on the other side, you’re implying that the strike was okayed on the Israeli side where they said, “We’re just going to kill four Palestinian people today for no reason.”

Norman FinkelsteinHey-

Benny MorrisDo you believe that?

Steven BonnellDo you believe that? Do you believe that? [inaudible 02:45:57] journalists, do you think that [inaudible 02:46:00]

Norman FinkelsteinHere we go-

Benny MorrisThat they would actually kill four children?

Steven BonnellHe went answer the question-

Norman FinkelsteinHere we go-

Steven BonnellHe will never answer that question.

Norman FinkelsteinI will answer the question-

Benny MorrisThe pilots were out to kill four children-

Norman FinkelsteinI will even answer the moron’s questions-

Steven BonnellBecause that was a strike, that was a drone strike, so that was approved all the way up the chain that we’re going to kill children today. We’re going to kill Palestinian children today-

Norman FinkelsteinOkay, you want me to answer or do you want your motormouth to go?

(02:47:17)Norman FinkelsteinOkay. So as you know, along the Gaza perimeter, there was Israel’s best-trained snipers. Correct?

Benny MorrisI don’t know best-trained. There was snipers-

Norman FinkelsteinFine. Okay. All right. Because… Hey, laugh. It’s hilarious. This story’s so funny-

Steven BonnellYou’re lying. The Great March of Return had aspects of violence to it. Even the UN says it themselves.

Norman FinkelsteinOkay, okay, okay.

Steven BonnellBut you only collect what the UN says that you like.

Norman FinkelsteinYou see the problem, Mr. Morelli, is, you don’t know the English language. You don’t-

Steven BonnellI can read from the UN website itself. In regards to the Great March of Return, they said, “While the vast majority of protestors have acted in a peaceful manner, during most protests dozens have approached the fence attempting to damage it, burning fires, throwing stones and Molotov cocktails towards Israeli forces, and flying incendiary kites and balloons into Israeli territory. The latter resulted in extensive damage to agricultural land and nature reserves inside Israel and risked the lives of Israeli civilians. Some incidents of shooting and throwing of explosives also reported-“

Norman FinkelsteinTalk Fast. Talk fast so people think that you’re coherent-

Steven BonnellI’m just reading from the UN-

Norman FinkelsteinYeah, but you’re saying-

Steven BerelliI know you like them sometimes, only when they agree with you though.

Norman FinkelsteinYou got the months wrong. You got the months wrong. We’re talking about the beginning in March 30th to what-

Steven FarelliYou just described that march as mostly peaceful.

Norman FinkelsteinOkay, allow me to finish. So there were the snipers, okay. Now, you find it so far-fetched. Israelis purposely, deliberately targeting civilians? That’s such a far-fetched idea. An overwhelmingly nonviolent march. What did the international investigation-

Benny MorrisIt wasn’t the march. It was a campaign which went on for months.

Norman FinkelsteinWhatever you want to call it, yeah. What did the UN investigation find? It found-

Benny MorrisWell, he just read it for you.

Norman FinkelsteinI read the report. I don’t read things off of those machines. I read the report. What did it find? Brace yourself. You thought it was so funny, the idea of IDF targeting civilians. It found… Go look this up on your machine-

Steven BonnellI already know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say it found that only one or two of them were justified killings-

Norman FinkelsteinIt targeted children, targeted journalists, targeted medics. And here’s the funniest one of all, it’s so hilarious, they targeted disabled people who were 300 meters away from the fence and just standing by trees-

(02:50:37)Steven MorelliThat’s fine, but then the second thing is, or there’s two distinctions I want to draw between. I think Benny would say this, I would say this. I’m sure, undoubtedly, there have been cases where IDF soldiers, for no good reason, have targeted and killed Palestinians that they should not have done, that would be prosecutable as war crimes as defined by the [inaudible 02:50:56]-

Benny MorrisAnd some have been prosecuted.

Steven BonnellAnd I’m absolutely sure-

Norman FinkelsteinAccording to you and your book, practically none.

Steven BotulismI’m sure that we would all agree for soldiers that that happens, but I think that it’s important that when we talk about military strikes or we talk about things especially involving bombings or drone attacks, these are things that are signed off by multiple different layers of command, by multiple people involved in an operation, including intelligence gathering, including weaponeering, and they also have typically lawyers involved. When you make the claim that an IDF soldier shot a Palestinian, those three people, the three hostages that came up with white flags, that something horrible happened, I think that’s a fair statement to make and I think a lot of criticism is deserved, but when you make the statement that four children were killed by a strike, the claim that you’re making-

Norman FinkelsteinDeliberately, yeah.

Steven BonnellThe claim that you’re making is that multiple levels of the IDF signed off-

Norman FinkelsteinI have no idea what [inaudible 02:51:47]-

Steven BonnellThat’s great if you don’t understand the process, then let me educate you.

Norman FinkelsteinYou don’t understand the process.

Steven BonnellI do understand the process, I’m telling you. I’m trying to explain to you right now.

Norman FinkelsteinReally? You’re in the IDF?

Steven BonnellNo, it’s basic-

Norman FinkelsteinYou’re studying the IDF.

Steven BonnellYou can ask anybody that talks about-

Norman FinkelsteinAside from Wikipedia, can you tell me what your knowledge of the IDF is?

Steven BonnellYou can talk to people who work in the military-

Norman FinkelsteinWhat’s your knowledge of the IDF?

Steven BonnellYour audience can look this up. Do you think that bombing and strikes are decided by one person in the field? Do you think one person-

Mouin RabbaniCan I respond to that?

Steven Bonnell[inaudible 02:52:10] on a drone strike-

Benny Morris[inaudible 02:52:11] a pilot doesn’t do it on his own.

Mouin RabbaniCan I respond-

Steven Barelli[inaudible 02:52:14] have entire apparatuses that are designed to figure out how to strike and who to strike, so when you say that four children are targeted, you’re saying that a whole apparatus that tries to murder-

Norman FinkelsteinYou made my argument better than me-

Steven Bonnell… Poor Palestinian children.

Norman FinkelsteinYou made my argument better than me.

Steven MorelliWhich is a ridiculous argument.

Norman FinkelsteinOh, really? It’s impossible at the command level, but you said that they couldn’t have done it at the bottom if it weren’t also at the top.

Steven BonelliYou don’t understand the strength of the claim that you’re making. You’re saying that from a top down level, that lawyers, multiple commanders, intelligence, all these people signed off-

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Bonnell, do not tell me what I don’t understand.

Steven Bonnell… On killing poor Palestinians, children.

Norman FinkelsteinIt’s true, I don’t spend my nights on Wikipedia. I read books. I admit that as a-

Steven BonnellThat’s a waste of time, by the way. You’re wasting time [inaudible 02:52:55].

Norman FinkelsteinI know, books are a waste of time. With all due regard, they’re-

Steven BonnellWell, according to you they are. The only thing you take from them are two or three quotes that you use to push people around.

Norman FinkelsteinI completely respect the fact… And I’ll say it on the air, as much as I find totally disgusting what’s come of your politics, a lot of the books are excellent, and I’ll even tell you because I’m not afraid of saying it, whenever I have to check on the basic fact, the equivalent of going to the Britannica, I go to your books. I know you got a lot of the facts right.

Lex FridmanBenny Morris’ books for the listener.

Norman FinkelsteinI would never say books are a waste of time and it’s regrettable to you that you got strapped with a partner who thinks that all the wisdom-

(02:57:07)Benny MorrisYou are saying that they deliberately targeted families. If Israel wanted to kill civilians in Gaza, they could have killed 500,000 by now with the number of strikes they’ve done and the fact that they’ve only killed a certain small number [inaudible 02:57:22]-

Mouin Rabbani30,000 is a small number?

Benny MorrisSmall number in proportion-

Mouin RabbaniYou consider 30,000 a small number?

Benny MorrisSmall number in proportion over four months probably is an indication that-

Norman Finkelstein12,000 children is only.

Benny Morris… Is targeted and that there are Hamas targets in these places.

Norman Finkelstein12,000 children is only, and if that’s the case, why is it-

Benny MorrisDid I use the word only?

Norman FinkelsteinYeah, you said only. Professor Morris, here’s a question for you, if we take every combat zone in the world for the past three years, every combat zone in the world-

Benny MorrisIn Vietnam, the Americans killed 1 million people.

Mouin RabbaniWell, the [inaudible 02:57:58] killed 40 million.

Norman FinkelsteinI was in the anti-war movement, so don’t strap me-

Benny MorrisThe Americans killed 1 million people in Vietnam.

Norman FinkelsteinFine, and 30 million Russians were killed during World War II, so everything else is irrelevant.

(02:58:15)Norman FinkelsteinProfessor Morris, here’s a question, it’s very perplexing. If you take every combat zone in the world for the past three years and you multiply the number of children killed by four, every combat zone in the world, you get Gaza. So when you say-

Steven BonnellWhat is that supposed to prove?

Norman FinkelsteinI’m going to tell you… Just shut up

Benny MorrisFirstly, you’re lying on Hamas numbers.

Norman FinkelsteinNo, I’m not lying [inaudible 02:58:44]-

Benny MorrisHamas numbers are not necessarily true.

Norman Finkelstein… The numbers that everybody else… I’m lying in the numbers [inaudible 02:58:47]-

Steven BonnellEven if we take the numbers though, what does that prove?

Benny MorrisThose are Hamas numbers, which may not be true. They could invent anything because you know that they are a mendacious organization.

Norman FinkelsteinI know mendacious, believe me-

Benny MorrisYou like the word mendacious?

Norman FinkelsteinMendacious as in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So here’s the thing, you say they could have killed 500,000, but they only killed, only, that’s your words, they only killed 30,000.

Benny MorrisYou believe that they deliberately target civilians, they would’ve killed many, many more. The fact is that they don’t deliberately target civilians.

Norman FinkelsteinProfessor Morris, for [inaudible 02:59:24]-

Benny MorrisAnd you don’t understand Israeli society.

Norman FinkelsteinI don’t want to understand Israeli society.

Benny MorrisYou don’t want the truth.

Norman FinkelsteinI don’t want to. I don’t want to get inside their heads.

Benny MorrisThat’s the problem.

Steven Bonnell[inaudible 02:59:33].

Norman Finkelstein90%-

Benny MorrisA good historian tries to get into the heads of-

Norman FinkelsteinThere’s a limit.

Benny Morris… The various protagonists.

Norman FinkelsteinThere’s a limit.

Benny MorrisA good historian does.

Norman FinkelsteinWhen 90% of Israelis think that Israel’s using enough or too little force in Gaza, I don’t want to get inside that head. 40% think that Israel is using insufficient force in Gaza. I don’t want to get inside that head. I don’t want to get inside the head of people who think they’re using insufficient force against the population, half of which is children. I don’t want to get inside that head, but here’s the point, because your partner wants to know the point. You don’t understand political constraints. One of your ministers said, “Let’s drop an atomic bomb on Gaza.”

Benny MorrisYou think he really meant that?

Mouin RabbaniHe said it three times.

Benny MorrisNo, no, no, it was said in a sort of a very questionable way. He didn’t say they should drop an atomic bomb.

Mouin RabbaniHe said it the day after the ICJ met.

Benny MorrisThis minister is a messianic idiot, but he didn’t say drop an atomic bomb [inaudible 03:00:43].

Mouin RabbaniHe said it [inaudible 03:00:44].

Norman FinkelsteinNone other Israel’s chief historian, the justifiably famed Benny Morris, thinks we should be dropping nuclear weapons on Iran.

Norman FinkelsteinNone other Israel’s chief historian, the justifiably famed Benny Morris, thinks we should be dropping nuclear weapons on Iran.

Benny MorrisIran, its leaders for years have said, “We should destroy Israel.” Do you agree with that? They’ve said, “We should destroy Israel. Israel must be destroyed.” Is that correct? This is what the Iranian leaders have been saying since Khomeini.

Norman FinkelsteinI would say Iranian leaders have sent mixed messages.

Benny MorrisBut some of them have said, including Khamenei-

Norman FinkelsteinIf you don’t know the evidence, why are you laughing?

Steven BonnellThe slightest skepticism, it’s very funny.

Norman FinkelsteinIt’s funny because-

Steven BonnellIran that supports Hezbollah and the Houthis and Hamas, maybe they want Israel destroyed.

Norman FinkelsteinBrace yourself to the extent that the Houthis are trying to stop the genocide in Gaza, I support-

Steven Bonnell[inaudible 03:01:37] ships. I know I selectively support international law when it agrees with you and then when it doesn’t, you decide to throw international law to the wind.

Benny MorrisThere’s no genocide in Gaza.

Norman FinkelsteinIf you like [inaudible 03:01:46]-

(03:07:25)Mouin RabbaniFor some reason, you don’t have a problem with people being pro-Israeli at the time of this, but if they support Palestinians’ right to life or self-determination, they get demonized and de-legitimized as pro-Hamas?

Benny MorrisThey supported an organization which murdered 1,200 people deliberately. That’s my problem.

Mouin RabbaniBut supporting a state that has murdered 30,000 [inaudible 03:\07:45]-

Benny MorrisBut they haven’t because these are 30,000 are basically human shields to get by the Hamas, in which the Hamas wanted killed. They wanted them killed. Hamas wanted these people killed.

Mouin RabbaniSure, if I could just get-

Benny MorrisYou don’t think they wanted them killed?

Mouin RabbaniNo, I don’t.

Benny MorrisThey didn’t provide them with shelters. They build tunnels for their fighters, but not one shelter for their own civilians.

(03:08:49)Mouin RabbaniSo, the reason I raised the South African application is twofold. Hamas or no Hamas, it’s exceptionally detailed on the question of intent. And secondly, when the International Court of Justice issues a ruling, individual justices have the right can give their own opinion. And I found the German one to be the most interesting on this specific question because he was basically saying that he didn’t think South Africa presented a persuasive case, but he said their section on intent was so overpowering that he felt he was left with no choice but to vote with the majority. So, I think that answers the intent part of your question.

Steven MorelliSo, for the ICJ case that South Africa has brought, I think there’s a couple of things that need to be mentioned. One is, and I saw you two talk at length about this, the plausibility standard is incredibly low. The only thing we’re looking for is a basic presentation of facts that make it conceivable, possible that-

Mouin RabbaniPlausible.

Steven BonnellPlausible, which legally, this is obviously below criminal conviction, below-

Mouin RabbaniYes, of course. Think of it as an indictment.

Steven BarelliSure, possibly, maybe even a lower level than even an indictment, so plausibility is an incredibly low standard, number one. Number two, if you actually go through and you read the complaint that South Africa filed, I would say that if you go through the quotes and you even follow through to the source of the quotes, the misrepresentation that South Africa does in their case about all of these horrendous quotes, in my opinion, borders on criminal.

Mouin Rabbani16 ICJ judges disagree.

Steven BonnellThat’s fine if 16 ICJ judges disagree, but I’m going to give-

Norman FinkelsteinThey must be awfully incompetent.

Steven BonnellThey could be.

Norman FinkelsteinEven the American judge, she must have been awful incompetent if she was unable to see the misrepresentations that Mr. Bonnell based on his Wikipedia entry was able to find.

Steven BonnellSo, this is based on the official ICJ report that was released. I’m not sure if you read the entire thing.

Norman FinkelsteinI read every aspect.

Steven MorelliDid you go through and actually identify any of the sources of underlying quotes?

Norman FinkelsteinActually, brace yourself for this and Mouin could confirm it, Yaniv Kogan, an Israeli, and Jamie Stern-Weiner, a half Israeli, they checked every single quote in the Hebrew original and Yaniv Kogan, love the guy, he has terrifying powers of concentration, he checked every single quote. Is that correct, Mouin?

Mouin RabbaniMm-hmm.

Norman FinkelsteinAnd Jamie checked every single quote in the English, in the context, and where there were any contextual questions they told us.

Mouin RabbaniI think they found one.

Norman FinkelsteinYeah, I think they found one. So, I do not believe that those 15 judges… It was 15 to two?

Mouin Rabbani16 to two, I think.

Norman FinkelsteinThere are 15 in the court plus two, so it’s 17, so it’s 15 to two. I don’t think those 15 judges were incompetent and I certainly don’t believe the president of the court, an American, would allow herself to be duped.

(03:16:00)Norman FinkelsteinI read the report. To tell you the truth, I followed very closely everything that’s been happening to October 7th, I was mesmerized. I couldn’t believe the comprehensiveness of that particular report. Number two, there are two quite respected judges… Excuse me, there were two quite respected experts of international law sitting on the South African panel, John Dugard and Vaughan Lowe. Vaughan Lowe, as you might know, he argued the war case in 2004 before the International Court of Justice. Now, they were alleging genocide, which in their view means the evidence in their minds…

We are not yet at the court. The evidence in their minds compels the conclusion that genocide is being committed. I am willing, because I happen to know Mr. Dugard personally, and I have corresponded with Vaughan Lowe, I’ve heard their claim, I’ve read the report. I would say they make a very strong case, but let’s agree plausible. Now, here’s a question, if somebody qualifies for an Olympic team, let’s say a regional person qualifies for an Olympic team, it doesn’t mean they’re going to be on the Olympic team, it doesn’t mean they’re going to win a gold medal, a silver medal, or a bronze medal-

Benny MorrisBut they can swim, that’s what you’re saying.

Norman FinkelsteinNo, I would say that’s a very high bar-

Benny MorrisYou’re saying they can swim.

Norman Finkelstein… To even qualify.

Mouin RabbaniThey can swim well enough to have a realistic prospect at winning a medal.

Norman FinkelsteinSo, the even make it to plausible-

Steven BumblebeeThat is not true. That is not what plausible means. It’s absolutely not. You’re dead wrong.

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Berelli, please don’t teach me about the English language.

Steven BonnellSo, the declaration judge [inaudible 03:17:53]-

Norman FinkelsteinI said plausibility is the same concept as qualifying.

Steven BonnellThe court is not asked at this present phase of the proceedings to determine whether South Africa’s allegations of genocide are well-founded. They’re not even well-founded. You said that plausible was a high standard, it’s absolutely not. It’s a misrepresentation of the strength of the case against Israel, just like the majority of the quotes they have in this case are. And also you said it was an extremely well-founded case. They spent like one-fourth of all the quotations, some even pulled from the Goldstone Report, that actually deal with the intent part, which is, by the way, I don’t know if you used the phrase dolus specialis, that the intentional part of genocide-

Mouin RabbaniI don’t know that term.

Steven BonnellI think it’s called dolus specialis, it’s the most important part of genocide, which is proving it is a highly special intent to commit genocide. It’s possible that Israel could-

Norman FinkelsteinThat’s [foreign language 03:18:43].

Steven BonnellYes, I understand the state of mind, but for genocide, it’s called dolus specialis. It’s a highly special intent. Did you read the case?

Norman FinkelsteinYeah.

Steven BorelliIt is a highly special intent [inaudible 03:18:56]-

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Berelli, I’m going to ask you again-

Steven FarelliYes.

Norman Finkelstein… Please stop displaying your imbecility.

Steven FarelliI’m sorry if you think the declaration of the judge is imbecility.

Norman FinkelsteinDon’t put on public display that you are a moron. At least have the self-possession to shut up. Did I read the case?

Steven MorelliI’m comfortable putting my display on camera if you’re comfortable putting yours in books.

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Berelli, I read the case around four times. I read all of the majority opinion, the declarations, I read our own Barack’s declaration [inaudible 0319:27]-

(03:21:41)Benny MorrisRemember what I just said, they won’t rule there was genocide. Remember what I said.

Steven BonnellAlso, I recommend people actually read the case and follow through a lot of the quotes that they just don’t show genocidal intent.

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Berelli, brace yourself.

(03:26:14)Steven BonnellBut even at that, we’re probably not going to agree. He’s going to say… You could write that. I can predict the whole line. He’s going to say from ’93 to ’99, he’s going to say, Israel didn’t adhere to the Oslo courts ever, settlement expansion continued, raids happened into the West Bank, that there was never a legitimate… That Netanyahu came in and violated the Y Memorandum, the transference. He’s going to say all of this and he’s not going to bring up anything of the Palestinian side. And then for Camp David, he’s going to say that yeah, that Arafat was trying, that the maps and the territorial exchange wasn’t good enough, that they were asking Palestinians to make all the concessions, that Israel would’ve made-

Lex FridmanWell, lay it all out. Lay it out.

Benny MorrisYou do talk quickly.

Steven BonnellYeah, I know. Yeah.

(03:54:35)Norman FinkelsteinAccording to the International Court of Justice, the designated unit for Palestinian self-determination, and they deny any right whatsoever on the right of return. I don’t want to go into the details now. The maximum formal offer was by Ehud Omar in 2008. He offered 5,000 refugees could return under what was called family reunification, 5,000, in the course of five years, and no recognition of any Israeli responsibility.

So if you use as the baseline what the UN General Assembly has said and what the International Court of Justice has said, if you use that baseline, international law, by that baseline, all the concessions came from the Palestinian side. Every single concession came from the Palestinian side. None came from the Israeli side. They may have accepted less than what they wanted, but it was still beyond what international law allocated to them. Now you say-

Mouin RabbaniAllocated to the Palestinians.

Norman FinkelsteinAllocated to Palestinians, yes. Thank you for the clarification. Now about Arafat, like the Mufti, never liked the guy. I think that was one of the only disagreements Mouin and I had. When Arafat passed, you were a little sentimental. I was not. I never liked the guy. But politics, you don’t have to like the guy. There was no question. Nobody argues it that whenever the negotiation started up, the Palestinians just kept saying the same things.

Benny MorrisNo.

Norman FinkelsteinNo.

Benny MorrisThey kept saying no.

Norman FinkelsteinNo. Professor Morris, with due respect, incorrect. They kept saying, “International legitimacy, international law, UN resolutions.” They said, “We already gave you what the law required. We gave that in 1988, November 1988, and then ratified again at Oslo in 1993.” And they said, “Now we want what was promised us under international law.” And that was the one point where everybody on the other side agreed. Clinton, don’t talk to me about international law. Livni during the Olmert administration. She said, “I studied international law. I don’t believe in international law.” Every single member on the other side, they didn’t want to hear from international law. And to my thinking that that is the only reasonable baseline for trying to resolve the conflict. And Israel has, along with the US-

Benny MorrisWhen has international law been relevant to any conflict basically in the world?

Norman FinkelsteinThat’s why-

Benny MorrisOver the last 150 years.

Norman FinkelsteinThat’s why the Palestinians have to recognize Israel because that’s international law.

Benny MorrisBut international law is-

Norman Finkelstein[inaudible 03:58:00] have to recognize Israel because that’s international law.

Benny MorrisNo, but international law is meaningless. oh my god, he admit it!

(04:05:13)Norman FinkelsteinProfessor Morris. Professor Morris.

Mouin RabbaniCome on.

Benny MorrisThat’s what Israelis want.

Norman FinkelsteinProfessor Morris.

Benny MorrisThey want a change of psyche among the Palestinians.

Norman FinkelsteinMouin has an interesting-

Benny MorrisIf that doesn’t happen, there won’t be a Palestinian state. There just won’t be.

Norman FinkelsteinMouin has an interesting point.

Benny MorrisForget international law and all the UN resolutions.

Norman FinkelsteinI know you want to forget it just like you want to forget the genocide charge. I know you want to forget that.

(04:16:33)Steven BonnellThe problem is, as Benny said, yeah, it’s difficult because Hamas enjoys so much widespread support amongst the Palestinian people. I think that… Well, I don’t know. There’s opinions on whether democracy or pushing them towards elections was the right or wrong idea. But with an Islamic fundamentalist government for Hamas, I don’t know if a negotiation with Israel ever happens there.

And then when the international pressure is always ’67 borders, infinite right of return for refugees, and a total withdrawal of Israel from all these lands to even start negotiations, I just don’t see, realistically, on the Palestinian side, no negotiations are ever going to start in a place that Israel’s willing to accept.

Mouin RabbaniIf you want to dismiss international law, that’s fine, but then you have to do it consistently. You can’t set standards for the Palestinians but reject applying those standards to Israel. If we’re going to have the law of the jungle, then we can all be beasts and not only some of us. So it’s either that or you have certain agreed standards that are intended to regulate our conduct, all of our conduct, not just some of us. So that’s a fundamental-

Steven Bonnell[inaudible 04:17:46] I’m saying to abandon?

Mouin RabbaniWell, you’re saying international law and the millionth UN resolution, you’re being very dismissive about all these things.

Steven MorelliWell, I’m saying [inaudible 04:17:54]-

Mouin RabbaniAnd that’s fine.

Steven BonnellI’m not being dismissive.

Mouin RabbaniBut then you have to be dismissive across the board.

Steven BonnellI’m just saying, for instance, 242, that was a Chapter VI resolution. That’s non-binding. But 242 [inaudible 04:18:01]-

Mouin RabbaniIt’s binding.

Steven BonnellIt’s absolutely not binding.

Mouin RabbaniIt’s binding.

Norman FinkelsteinWhat is binding? Do you know anything about how the UN system works?

Steven BonnellIf you read the language of the resolution, binding is typically if it commits you to upholding a particular international law or if it establishes [inaudible 04:18:13].

Norman FinkelsteinWhat is Chapter VI? You just throw out words. You hear binding, not binding.

(04:18:31)Mouin RabbaniYeah, but hold on. Hold on. Every United Nations Security Council resolution, irrespective of under which chapter it was adopted, is, by definition, binding. Binding not only on the members of the Security Council but on every member state of the UN. Read the UN Charter. It’s black and white.

Steven BonnellSure. People can look that up [inaudible 04:18:53]-

Mouin RabbaniYes.

Steven Bonnell… but the language even of 242 is kept intentionally vague such that it doesn’t actually provide, again, the final [inaudible 04:18:59]-

Mouin RabbaniIt’s actually not that vague-

Steven BonnellIt’s incredibly vague.

Mouin Rabbani… because the term “land for peace” originates in 242. The idea is-

Steven BonnellSure, but the part about territorial acquisition and Israel’s need to give it up was kept vague. That’s why, in ’79, Israel thought that they fulfilled their obligations under 242 [inaudible 0419:13]-

Mouin RabbaniYou asked a separate question.

Norman FinkelsteinAllow me points of information. The first principle in UN Resolution 242 is that the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force-

Steven BonnellWhich is meaningless.

Norman FinkelsteinIt may be meaningless to you, Mr. Bonnell.

Steven BonnellIt was meaningless to everyone in the region.

Norman FinkelsteinOkay. Mr. Bonnell, that principle was adopted by the Friendly Nations Resolution, the UN General Assembly in 1970. That resolution was then reiterated in the International Court of Justice ruling, advisory opinion in 2004. That was the basis of the coalition against Iraq when it acquired Kuwait and then declared it a province of Kuwait.

(04:20:17)Norman FinkelsteinIt’s called, under international law, jus cogens or peremptory norms of international law, the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war. That is not controversial. It’s not vague. You couldn’t put it more succinctly. You cannot acquire territory by force under international law.

Steven WeasellyOn the West Bank before ’67, who owned the Gaza Strip before ’67?

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Bonnell, don’t change the subject. If you don’t know what you’re talking about-

Steven BonnellIt’s not about [inaudible 04:20:50]-

Norman Finkelstein… at least have the humility-

Steven BorrellHow close has 242-

Norman FinkelsteinYou talk about Chapter VI-

Steven BonnellHow close has 242 gotten-

Norman FinkelsteinYou don’t know Chapter VI-

Steven BonnellHow close has 242 gotten the Palestinians to peace?

Norman FinkelsteinYou don’t know Chapter VI from tweet five. You have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s just so embarrassing. At least have some humility. Between us who have read maybe 10,000 books on the topic and you’ve read two Wikipedia entries and you start talking about Chapter VI. Do you know what Chapter VII is?

Steven BonnellAnswer me. Answer the question.

Norman FinkelsteinDo you know what Chapter VII is?

Steven BeelzebubNorm, answer the question. How close has 242 gotten the Palestinians to a state?

Mouin RabbaniLet me ask you this.

Steven BonnellHow close has the 2004 advisory opinion gotten the West Bank settlement [inaudible 04:21:26]?

Mouin RabbaniWhat’s your alternative?

Steven BonnellThe alternative is not this, whatever this making money off the conflict is. The actual alternative-

Norman Finkelstein[inaudible 04:21:33] making money-

Steven WikipediaThe actual alternative-

Norman FinkelsteinDestiny should talk about making money off of idiocy.

Steven BorelliYes. Yeah, you’re a media [inaudible 04:21:37] when you go and talk to 50 million different people about your awesome [inaudible 04:21:40].

Benny MorrisBut he has a point, though.

Norman FinkelsteinWhat point?

Steven MorelliBut the issue is you have to negotiate-

Benny MorrisAll these resolutions have gotten the Palestinians no closer to a state.

Steven FarelliNothing.

Norman FinkelsteinYeah, but hold on. Because they haven’t been enforced because of the US veto.

Benny MorrisThey’re not going to be enforced.

Norman FinkelsteinWait, wait, wait, wait.

Benny MorrisThey’ve gotten nowhere-

Mouin RabbaniIf I may, if I may-

Steven Borelli[inaudible 04:21:52].

Norman FinkelsteinYou know what? You know what? Professor Morris-

Steven Bonnell[inaudible 04:21:58] about the case for genocide.

Norman FinkelsteinProfessor Morris, because of your logic, and I’m not disputing it, that’s why October 7th happened.

Benny MorrisOh my God.

Norman FinkelsteinBecause there was no options left for those people. Exactly what Mouin said.

Benny MorrisAnd now what options are left? After October 7th-

Steven BonnellThis has been the Palestinian mentality for 60 years.

Benny Morris… what’s the options left?

Steven BerelliThe only option is conflict.

Norman FinkelsteinListen to this.

Steven BonnellThe only option is combat.

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Bonnell is now an expert on Palestinian mentality.

Mouin RabbaniHold on. You’re contradicting yourself.

Norman FinkelsteinYou know as much about Palestinian politics as you know about Chapter V.

Steven BorelliI only deal with facts. I only deal with facts. Egypt didn’t find it necessary to-

Norman FinkelsteinTell me about Chapter V.

Steven BonnellEgypt didn’t find it necessary-

Norman FinkelsteinTell me about Chapter V.

Steven Bonnell… to negotiate peace [inaudible 04:22:34] the Palestinians. Jordan didn’t find it necessary to negotiate peace [inaudible 04:22:36] the Palestinians.

Mouin RabbaniHey, if I may-

Steven BarelliThe Abraham Accords [inaudible 04:22:37] the Palestinians-

Norman FinkelsteinTalk faster, faster, faster, faster.

Steven Bonnell… despite all of the international law-

Lex FridmanEverybody, Mouin.

Norman FinkelsteinFaster.

(04:23:28)Steven BonnellYou can quote Arafat talking about how he’s lying and he’s just going to use… In ’94 and ’95 when he’s making trips around the world, how he just wanted [inaudible 04:23:35] starting ground.

Norman FinkelsteinTalk faster. Talk faster.

Steven BorelliI’m sorry. I can’t talk slow. You can watch [inaudible 04:23:38] and slow it down to 0.5 speed if you don’t understand what I’m saying.

Norman FinkelsteinFaster. Faster.

Mouin RabbaniThere’s a very lengthy history-

Norman FinkelsteinMotor mouth.

Mouin Rabbani… of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. You want to deny that those negotiations took place.

Steven BonnellWhere it feels like there was a good-faith effort-

Norman FinkelsteinWhat it feels like.

Steven FarelliWhere there was a good-faith effort-

Norman FinkelsteinFeels like.

Steven BonnellWhere there was a good-faith effort-

Norman FinkelsteinWe have a written record.

Steven BonnellWith all due respect-

Norman FinkelsteinWe have a written record, Mr. Bonnell.

Steven BonnellMr. Pop History, you can’t even read the written records. I don’t know why you’re referring to them. Okay.

Norman FinkelsteinExcuse me? I just said there are 15,000 pages on Annapolis.

Steven MorelliAnd I’m sure you cherry-picked your favorite quotes from all of them. Okay.

Norman FinkelsteinI don’t cherry-pick.

Steven FarelliThat’s great. That’s great.

Norman FinkelsteinMr. Bonnell, at least I had a quote to cherry-pick.

Steven BonnellThat’s great. [inaudible 04:24:12].

Norman FinkelsteinAll you have is Wikipedia.

Steven BonnellI gave you quotes.

Norman FinkelsteinAll you have is Wikipedia.

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