• cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
    5·
    2 days ago

    I have a hard time actually thinking of a people more propagandized, possibly the Germans

    They are definitely a contender for top place.

    but I feel like even for them there’ll always be a tiny tiny hint of doubt since they actually DID do the Holocaust once.

    The problem is that they’ve turned that into a superiority complex too, like there is this pride in how “well” they think they have dealt with their historical guilt* and that makes them better than others who don’t do the same amount of performative self-flagellation.

    The fact that they did that reinforces their belief that they are now the most democratic and most liberal and most introspective society ever as a result of it, and every other society is less progressive because they didn’t go through what the Germans did (and often times it even feels like they think they were the biggest victim of the Nazi regime).

    And it’s this sense of liberal superiority that has them convinced they cannot be wrong again because they already did the worst thing possible and “learned from it”, so their support for literal Nazis in Ukraine and for a genocide in Palestine has to be moral and anyone who says it’s wrong are actually like the Nazis.

    there is zero guilt, zero introspection and total belief that your outlook on the world is correct.

    Like i said, i’m not sure which is worse, no sense of guilt or guilt-pride. But yeah, it’s very hard to get someone to acknowledge the deep seated issues in their society if they are convinced and if so much of how the world talks about them reinforces the belief that they already have the perfect system that is the most advanced and most “civilized”.

    *(By the way, they also briefly address Sweden and its racism toward the end of that linked video discussion, you can check it out if you’re interested.)

    • Rylo@lemmygrad.ml
      2·
      2 days ago

      *(By the way, they also briefly address Sweden and its racism toward the end of that linked video discussion, you can check it out if you’re interested.)

      Yea the point was spot on. And I don’t even know how this course should be reversed, one of the most pressing issues is that is the same (class of) people still running the countries (in both Germany and Sweden). Denazification in West Germany was a joke, and in Sweden there never was anything of the sort – which just leads to unconditional chauvinism. You start to understand why Lenin just shot people, and why the cultural revolution was necessary.

      Ah, I am so done with all of it.

      • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
        3·
        2 days ago

        While recognizing all of these issues i think it’s still important to maintain some semblance of optimism and avoid giving in to the temptation of doomerism.

        Doomerism is not proletarian and not revolutionary, it’s a way of detaching emotionally and feeling “above” the masses. As Marxists we understand that these reactionary attitudes are not innate but a product of the system, of the hegemonic culture and of the material conditions. We also understand that change is inevitable and sooner or later the decaying material conditions will sharpen the contradictions between the chauvinistic outlook and the lived reality to a point where some kind of reckoning must happen.

        This means on the one hand that far right forces are going to gain in power, that is already certain and baked into the fabric of European society, but it also opens up opportunities for the left to provide an alternative vision and narrative if it can manage to finally set aside its Western chauvinism, embrace real anti-imperialism and internationalism, and stop falling for the liberal-imperialist “anti-authoritarian” psyop.

        That is why for me it is so important to get western leftists to understand that all of the struggles that are currently being waged against Western imperialism, whether it’s the EU-NATO proxy war against Russia, the genocide in Palestine and Lebanon, the war on Iran, the blockade of Cuba and the regime change operations in Venezuela, the terrorist war against the Sahel states, and the economic war against China, they are all conceptually linked and fronts of the same struggle that we ourselves are facing domestically against capital and fascism.

        And there is no excuse for discriminating between them or saying that one is less legitimate than another (like the western leftists who support Palestine but not Iran, Cuba but not Russia or China, and so on), because if you start doing that you have allowed the ruling class to insert chauvinism into your movement which rots it from the inside and turns it into just another neutered and imperialism-compatible version of social democracy dressed in leftist clothing.

        • Rylo@lemmygrad.ml
          3·
          2 days ago

          Yea, it is just frustrating. I really threw myself out there during the entry-into-NATO phase, and there was just…nothing; no public discourse, no pushback from “leftists” to liberals alike, everyone just agreed that it was somehow a good thing and that you were stupid if you were against it. They didn’t even need to do a referendum because the political class united so quickly and attenuated every contrary opinion – none of the politically adjacent organizations I was/am involved in wanted to talk about it. It somewhat broke me to be honest.

          Now, I am generally optimistic that globally the marxist position will continue to be strengthened and prevail, but I don’t think we will see changes in this

          opportunities for the left to provide an alternative vision and narrative if it can manage to finally set aside its Western chauvinism, embrace real anti-imperialism and internationalism, and stop falling for the liberal-imperialist “anti-authoritarian” psyop.

          in Europe for a long time. We have generational brain rot, and I am starting to think that wont change until a few generations just die off (either by age or heatwaves). This is not that I think people can’t change and more that I haven’t seen populations capable of this unless there’s a popular revolution, and I don’t think that will ever happen in Europe (at least not in a way similar to previous ones).

          That doesn’t mean I disagree with trying though, and I’ll keep doing that. I’m just venting here because IRL I am the one who takes the vehemently optimistic position, so as to not discourage the baby leftists around me.

          decaying material conditions will sharpen the contradictions between the chauvinistic outlook and the lived reality to a point where some kind of reckoning must happen.

          My skepticism here is that for Europe this usually means Fascism and we see no signs of it being different this time – on the contrary – I think socially the case for socialism is much weaker than it was in Germany, Italy, Spain, etc during the 1900s. At least the labor movement was organized, we had a strong Soviet Union and people were not so entrenched into the narratives of the capital class. The political class itself was much more fragmented than today and if we couldn’t succeed with a socialisation of our institutions during those conditions, I am relatively restrictive in holding out hope for it happening under our current conditions, which I feel are much worse.

          The coming decade of post-Ukraine policy will dictate a lot of what happens. As the material conditions continue to degrade, it almost feels like the most optimistic scenario is implosion and a further weakening of european standing in the world, increasingly forcing us to make amends and respect Africa and Asia. As long as we have a strong Russia, China, Iran, Sahel states, etc, there is at least hope that the EU by necessity is forced to acknowledge multipolarity – which in the long run will birth a new political consciousness that isn’t as chauvinist as the current one.