Do you deny that there is white genocide in South Africa? Or that Europeans are being genocided through “the great replacement”? Or is it possible genocide is a serious accusation that requires serious proof and questioning shoddy proof is not bad?
What makes questioning the holocaust (much like the genocide in Gaza) so heinous is the fact that it is so incredibly well documented that the only possibile explanation for questioning, downplaying or denial is pure hatred. On the other hand in Xinjiang, a tourist hub with millions of tourists every year, in an advanced country where almost everyone has smartphones there is essentially 0 evidence of genocide. Unless you believe the Chinese government has secretly developed teleportation or invisibility or some such nonsense that merits questioning that in all these years no reputable organisation has called what’s happening a genocide that there is no real proof and that the 2 biggest faces of the movement pushing for the classification are American intelligence linked Christian evangelical “on a mission from god to destroy china” (Adrian zenz) and a Guantanamo bay torturer (Rushan Abbas).
Or that Europeans are being genocided through “the great replacement”?
You’re a fool. Europeans are deciding on theur own to not have kids due to a variety of socioeconomic factors, but those countries still need labor to keep things running so they use immigration to bring people in. That’s all there is to it.
If European countries would actually address the issues leading to younger people deciding to not have kids, then there wouldn’t be a problem.
But they won’t do that, because then the economy wouldn’t be build to cater exclusively to their version of the baby boomer generation.
That’s the point I’m trying to make dumbass. Just because someone calls something genocide does not make it genocide if you don’t have some serious proof to back it up.
Or I am someone who thinks German evangelicals on missions from god to destroy countries and Guantanamo bay torturers are bad sources of information while first hand reports from delegations, the OIC and the UN are more reliable.
interesting. you didn’t notice any severe (even by Chinese standards) surveillance while you were there? or any han-washing/disneyification of uyghur culture while you were there?
I’ll clarify bc im not who you were talking to before, I’m not educated enough to say “yes it’s definitely genocide” but I think they’re trying to do away with the culture… which is very bad even if not genocide bad.
i think china are masters of controlling information (re: great firewall, govt criticism is illegal, communist party affiliation is required to rise in certain industries, etc) so while I understand why you don’t trust the western sources that say it is genocide, I don’t think the absence of proof is the smoking gun you think it is.
(i am not a Holocaust expert don’t hang me if I’m wrong) i don’t think evidence of the Holocaust was widely available while Nazi Germany was in power, the reason we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it happened is because they’re not there to obfuscate the evidence anymore.
you didn’t notice any severe (even by Chinese standards) surveillance while you were there?
No. I also resent the implication of “by Chinese standards” when China has less CCTV per capita than the US and a far less globally pervasive intelligence apparatus than the CIA, NSA or Five eyes.
han-washing
What do you mean by this?
disneyification of uyghur culture
No. It was just a living working city with Turkic architecture, different cuisine, and people living their lives as they do in all cities.
I think they’re trying to do away with the culture…
Maybe, but if that were true, I’d expect to see any hallmarks of ethnic cleansing or cultural erasure: banning language, banning customs, deportations, forced removal, and so on. That simply does not appear to be happening.
great firewall
It’s an IP/domain/protocol blacklist that is easily bypassed by everyone through easy access to VPNs as it’s meant to keep certain platforms out (for good reason, just look at how America used their monopoly on social media platforms in SE Asia to push antivax nonsense during Covid or how Facebook facilitated the Rohingya genicide) not keep us in.
govt criticism is illegal
Categorically untrue. The entire point of local party offices and the 12345 hotline is to provide channels for complaints and criticism.
communist party affiliation is required to rise in certain industries
State ownership of important industries is good actually.
I don’t think the absence of proof is the smoking gun you think it is.
“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Thank you for that, George Bush. Did you ever find those WMDs?
Deciding to abandon any evidentiary standard because of vibes about a country, especially when those vibes have been shaped by a hostile media apparatus, is bad.
(i am not a Holocaust expert don’t hang me if I’m wrong) i don’t think evidence of the Holocaust was widely available while Nazi Germany was in power, the reason we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it happened is because they’re not there to obfuscate the evidence anymore.
I think it’s important to distinguish between the two situations. The Holocaust was largely carried out in occupied territories to the east, where tourists, journalists, and unauthorized visitors had no access. It also happened in a period when the world was far less connected than it is now.
Today, most people carry a high-quality audio/video recorder and publishing device in their pocket, and satellite imagery is far more advanced. Xinjiang also receives millions of visitors a year. Given all of that, it seems unreasonable to claim there is some secret genocide going on when the evidence presented mostly points to abuses during the crackdown on ETIM. And before that gets twisted: yes, those abuses are still bad. But they are much closer to the treatment of marginalized communities by states like the US than they are to anything remotely comparable to genocide.
Modern genocides are effectively impossible to hide. Look at Rwanda, or more recently Gaza: even with Gaza heavily destroyed and access severely restricted, there are still hundreds of hours of footage and documentation.
Since 2014, the government of the People’s Republic of China has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities in Xinjiang which has often been characterized as persecution or as genocide. There have been reports of mass arbitrary arrests and detention, torture, mass surveillance, cultural and religious persecution, family separation, forced labor, sexual violence, and violations of reproductive rights.
In 2014, the administration of Chinese Communist Party (CCP) general secretary Xi Jinping launched the Strike Hard Campaign Against Violent Terrorism, which involved surveillance and restrictions in Xinjiang. Beginning in 2017, under Xinjiang Party secretary Chen Quanguo,[2] the government incarcerated over an estimated one million Uyghurs without legal process in internment camps officially described as “vocational education and training centers”, in the largest mass internment of an ethnic-religious minority group since World War II.[3][4] China began to wind down the camps in 2019, and some detainees were transferred to the penal system, while others were transferred to forced labor and factory work programs.[5][6]
In addition to mass detention, government policies have included suppression of Uyghur religious practices,[7] political indoctrination,[8] forced sterilization,[9] forced contraception,[10][11] and forced abortion.[12][13] An estimated 16,000 mosques have been razed or damaged,[2] and hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents and sent to boarding schools.[14][15] Chinese government statistics reported that from 2015 to 2018, birth rates in the mostly Uyghur regions of Hotan and Kashgar fell by more than 60%.[9] In the same period, the national birth rate decreased by 9.7%.[16] According to CNN, Chinese authorities acknowledged that birth rates dropped by almost a third in 2018 in Xinjiang, but denied reports of forced sterilization.[17] Birth rates in Xinjiang fell a further 24% in 2019, compared to a nationwide decrease of 4.2%.[9]
The Chinese government denies having committed human rights abuses in Xinjiang.[3][18] International reactions have varied, with its actions being described as the forced assimilation of Xinjiang, as ethnocide or cultural genocide,[19][20] or as genocide. Those accusing China of genocide point to intentional acts they say violate Article II of the Genocide Convention,[21][22][23] which prohibits “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part”, a “racial or religious group” including “causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group” and “measures intended to prevent births within the group”.[24]
At the United Nations, several countries, predominantly in North America and Europe, signed letters condemning China’s policies. On the other hand, several countries, predominantly in Asia and Africa, signed letters supporting the policies as an effort to combat terrorism in the region.[25][26][27] In 2020, a case brought to the International Criminal Court was dismissed because China is not a party to the Rome Statute, meaning the ICC could not investigate them.[28] In 2021, the United States Department of State declared China’s actions as genocide,[29][30] and legislatures in several countries have passed non-binding motions doing the same, while other parliaments, condemned the policies as “severe human rights abuses” or crimes against humanity.[31] In a 2022 assessment, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) stated that China’s policies and actions in the Xinjiang region may constitute crimes against humanity, though it did not use the term genocide.[32][33][34] In 2026, the OHCHR described China’s policies toward the Uyghurs as potentially amounting to “forcible transfer and/or enslavement as a crime against humanity.”[35]
I could dive deep on the issues of sourcing for this article (like the very first source being Guantanamo Bay torturer and US intelligence asset Rushan Abbas) but I think a more interesting question is why this article’s title was changed from genocide of to persecution of? Why does the OIC say there is no genocide? Why does the UN refuse to classify the situation as a genocide?
So you think there is white genocide in south Africa and white people are being genocide in Europe through the great replacement? Or is it possible that questioning things not backed by conclusive evidence is not bad but in fact the good and normal thing to do?
It’s not whataboutism. If simply calling something a genocide makes questioning the basis of the claim evil then it only makes sense you believe all accusations. You must clearly stand with white South Africans and white Americans and Europeans against their genocides.
Or maybe questioning claims that are not backed by conclusive evidence is ok.
Or your source is a Wikipedia article that sites Rushan fucking Abbas and articles who then in turn site Adrian Zenz. If someone sites Elon Musk to tell you there is white genocide in South Africa and “the great replacement is real” would you believe them? Also your source does not claim there is a genocide, it makes claims of abuses (which there definitely were but this articles exaggeration of events would be hilarious if it wasn’t such a grim topic). So again we’re back to claims without conclusive evidence that it’s only right to be sceptical of. The OIC and the UN both seem to agree there is no genocide.
Do you deny that there is white genocide in South Africa? Or that Europeans are being genocided through “the great replacement”? Or is it possible genocide is a serious accusation that requires serious proof and questioning shoddy proof is not bad?
What makes questioning the holocaust (much like the genocide in Gaza) so heinous is the fact that it is so incredibly well documented that the only possibile explanation for questioning, downplaying or denial is pure hatred. On the other hand in Xinjiang, a tourist hub with millions of tourists every year, in an advanced country where almost everyone has smartphones there is essentially 0 evidence of genocide. Unless you believe the Chinese government has secretly developed teleportation or invisibility or some such nonsense that merits questioning that in all these years no reputable organisation has called what’s happening a genocide that there is no real proof and that the 2 biggest faces of the movement pushing for the classification are American intelligence linked Christian evangelical “on a mission from god to destroy china” (Adrian zenz) and a Guantanamo bay torturer (Rushan Abbas).
You’re a fool. Europeans are deciding on theur own to not have kids due to a variety of socioeconomic factors, but those countries still need labor to keep things running so they use immigration to bring people in. That’s all there is to it.
If European countries would actually address the issues leading to younger people deciding to not have kids, then there wouldn’t be a problem.
But they won’t do that, because then the economy wouldn’t be build to cater exclusively to their version of the baby boomer generation.
That’s the point I’m trying to make dumbass. Just because someone calls something genocide does not make it genocide if you don’t have some serious proof to back it up.
I get it now. You’re just a tankie/wumao that’s salty about someone mentioning the Uyghur Genocide.
Fuck off
Or I am someone who thinks German evangelicals on missions from god to destroy countries and Guantanamo bay torturers are bad sources of information while first hand reports from delegations, the OIC and the UN are more reliable.
have you watched any vlogs from tourists in xinjiang?
I have been there personally
The skewers alone made it worth the train journey.
interesting. you didn’t notice any severe (even by Chinese standards) surveillance while you were there? or any han-washing/disneyification of uyghur culture while you were there?
I’ll clarify bc im not who you were talking to before, I’m not educated enough to say “yes it’s definitely genocide” but I think they’re trying to do away with the culture… which is very bad even if not genocide bad.
i think china are masters of controlling information (re: great firewall, govt criticism is illegal, communist party affiliation is required to rise in certain industries, etc) so while I understand why you don’t trust the western sources that say it is genocide, I don’t think the absence of proof is the smoking gun you think it is.
(i am not a Holocaust expert don’t hang me if I’m wrong) i don’t think evidence of the Holocaust was widely available while Nazi Germany was in power, the reason we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it happened is because they’re not there to obfuscate the evidence anymore.
No. I also resent the implication of “by Chinese standards” when China has less CCTV per capita than the US and a far less globally pervasive intelligence apparatus than the CIA, NSA or Five eyes.
What do you mean by this?
No. It was just a living working city with Turkic architecture, different cuisine, and people living their lives as they do in all cities.
Maybe, but if that were true, I’d expect to see any hallmarks of ethnic cleansing or cultural erasure: banning language, banning customs, deportations, forced removal, and so on. That simply does not appear to be happening.
It’s an IP/domain/protocol blacklist that is easily bypassed by everyone through easy access to VPNs as it’s meant to keep certain platforms out (for good reason, just look at how America used their monopoly on social media platforms in SE Asia to push antivax nonsense during Covid or how Facebook facilitated the Rohingya genicide) not keep us in.
Categorically untrue. The entire point of local party offices and the 12345 hotline is to provide channels for complaints and criticism.
State ownership of important industries is good actually.
“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Thank you for that, George Bush. Did you ever find those WMDs?
Deciding to abandon any evidentiary standard because of vibes about a country, especially when those vibes have been shaped by a hostile media apparatus, is bad.
I think it’s important to distinguish between the two situations. The Holocaust was largely carried out in occupied territories to the east, where tourists, journalists, and unauthorized visitors had no access. It also happened in a period when the world was far less connected than it is now.
Today, most people carry a high-quality audio/video recorder and publishing device in their pocket, and satellite imagery is far more advanced. Xinjiang also receives millions of visitors a year. Given all of that, it seems unreasonable to claim there is some secret genocide going on when the evidence presented mostly points to abuses during the crackdown on ETIM. And before that gets twisted: yes, those abuses are still bad. But they are much closer to the treatment of marginalized communities by states like the US than they are to anything remotely comparable to genocide.
Modern genocides are effectively impossible to hide. Look at Rwanda, or more recently Gaza: even with Gaza heavily destroyed and access severely restricted, there are still hundreds of hours of footage and documentation.
Persecution of Uyghurs in China
I could dive deep on the issues of sourcing for this article (like the very first source being Guantanamo Bay torturer and US intelligence asset Rushan Abbas) but I think a more interesting question is why this article’s title was changed from genocide of to persecution of? Why does the OIC say there is no genocide? Why does the UN refuse to classify the situation as a genocide?
The better question is why do people deny genocides?
So you think there is white genocide in south Africa and white people are being genocide in Europe through the great replacement? Or is it possible that questioning things not backed by conclusive evidence is not bad but in fact the good and normal thing to do?
Your whatsboutism is transparent and looks foolish.
It’s not whataboutism. If simply calling something a genocide makes questioning the basis of the claim evil then it only makes sense you believe all accusations. You must clearly stand with white South Africans and white Americans and Europeans against their genocides.
Or maybe questioning claims that are not backed by conclusive evidence is ok.
I’ve provided a lot of evidence that a lot of other people, countries and organizations back up.
My sources will never be good enough for you because you are a genocide denier.
Or your source is a Wikipedia article that sites Rushan fucking Abbas and articles who then in turn site Adrian Zenz. If someone sites Elon Musk to tell you there is white genocide in South Africa and “the great replacement is real” would you believe them? Also your source does not claim there is a genocide, it makes claims of abuses (which there definitely were but this articles exaggeration of events would be hilarious if it wasn’t such a grim topic). So again we’re back to claims without conclusive evidence that it’s only right to be sceptical of. The OIC and the UN both seem to agree there is no genocide.