Without any examples and as a third party to this discussion I would guess it’s probably because one is said with a positive albeit sarcastic yet chipper delivery. Self deprecation sounds more negative or pouty to me which can be a huge turn off. Even if someone is really good at something when they are always negative about themselves it gets old really fast.
Better to say nothing then, or even to be an incincere positive is infact better. Least you tried in that case. One thing I was taught, that helps, is to stop all negative self talk, both outloud and in my head, as soon as I realize I am doing it.
example: “Im so fucking stupid” Wait, I am not stupid “actually, I made a mistake and I feel embarrassed”. Reframe. The second statement is more honest anyway.
I was reluctant to try this at first because it seems foolish, but after making an effort, it, um, helps, a lot more than I thought.
Could you try that? Nix the neg. self talk?
You did it just now here, “…women really found pathetic men attractive I would be a total catch”. Stop that shit, there is literally no point in calling yourself pathetic except to self harm ur psyche. So, could you please, work on calling yourself out for it? Quit negative self talk, and maybe you can be funny again like the rest of us depressed folk.
as for the meme, mad people play pick up basket ball. We dont know if the person in the post was on an offical team or not.
I appreciate the effort to be helpful, and I do see your point, but honestly I tried for so long to “get better” that it ultimately ended up feeling more like a carrot on a stick. It was more painful to hold out hope that I could get better, while slowly realizing that I probably never will, than it was to simply accept that I’ll always be this way and learn to make my peace with that instead.
And in the past couple years, I’ve made more progress merely in terms of peace of mind, just by accepting that my life will probably never get better, than I did in all the years of earnestly (and at times desperately) striving to get better and improve my life or the world around me.
As long as it felt like there was a chance, I yearned for it. Now that I’ve lost all hope, I’m at peace. It sounds paradoxical and contradictory, but I’ve been much more mentally stable lately and it’s now been over a year since my last trip to a mental hospital. And for me that’s an accomplishment.
As for the negative self-talk, I do have boundaries. There are some things that seriously bother me and I know which of my own buttons not to push. Usually stuff related to the things I’ve been put down by others for throughout my life.
But if having dark humor about my depression or being a social outcast helps me cope, then why can’t I? People act like that’s so toxic, but they also treat depression like it’s contagious and basically shun me for even talking about it. So what’s more toxic, my self-deprecation or the social stigma that’s attached to mental health?
I just find it kind of insulting that people avoid me because I’m so pathetic, but for some reason I’m not allowed to acknowledge how pathetic I am? As if I’m supposed to be completely oblivious and totally lacking in self-awareness?
Even if I tried being confident people would just call me arrogant because deep down I have nothing really to feel confident about. And this sort of mixed messaging has been weaponized against me my whole life. This back-and-forth where any time I take people’s advice, they turn around and fault me for that too.
No matter what I do, it’s always the wrong thing. So I’m done trying to please people. Just let me be pathetic, it’s much better for my mental health than pretending I’m anything else.
I just woke up and skimmed this, and no youre not allowed to acknowledge… (honestly eye roll) how pathetic you are. I been feeling a little pathetic myself too lately, but I dont thrust that out into the open.
why do you feel “pathetic”, specifically? dont tell me, tell yourself, and then work on mitigating it, or accepting those things about yourself.
DONT PLEASE PEOPLE, PLEASE YOURSELF (haha not like that) but i mean do things for yourself not others. Confidence isnt “to get something, or to impress someone” confedence is not hating yourself, carrying healthly self esteem and knowing yourself well.
so, adding to the list, stop the neg. self talk, and, reconize you might have some low self esteem here. Reads this way anyway.
“someone (who I ask, do not hang with assholes) will call me arrogant if I show confidence, because I have nothing to be confident about”. If someone does this its called a them problem, not a you problem. Were you being arrogant in that moment? you really dont think so? maybe you were? perhaps you didnt mean to? “im sorry that wasnt my intention”. And then avoid name callers? idk, Im tired.
youre being a goofball and really should learn what you like about yourself, and lean into that. Set those boundaries to a larger parameter because what the hey man- you mine as well stand there with a knife faced inward when you talk about yourself this way
my family were my first bullies, we ignore bullies, whoever called you pathetic growing up was a weak little liar putting a child down, they sound pathetic, and why not care for those wounds eh? sorry yeah, healing takes years and struggle will always be present, but how you handle that struggle internally, without blaming and critizing yourself, that will make a difference. most outward human “failures”, like not hitting life benchmarks or whatever, are systemic anyway. feel good bout urself despite them. take a break, but youll be “trying” til your dead, so enjoy that ;) haha but this is life. Without stuggle there are no wins and everyone “loses” sometimes. Im losing the game of life right now myself. Id rather call it reaching a transitory stage… but, acceptence and komorebi at my side, it will pass. Just because I feel like a loser right now, doesnt mean thats who I am at my core. I feel pathetic I cant quit tobacco, but, im still not pathetic at my core, I know this.
youre not pathetic, my cat begging for treats is pathetic, adults who put down young people down are pathetic, unless you yourself are being a cunt to everyone around you for no fucking reason and telling some kid theyll never amount to nothing, pretty certain youre redeemable and fine, my ignorence tends to believe most people are redeemable. Life sucks and beats the shit out of most, lets not let it win. set the boundary parameter wider, and stop calling yourself pathetic.
Last couple years youve made progress? yeah? that is dope! look how much youve done! I bet it hasnt been an easy road! That is not pathetic mate. So why the fuck you out here lying, telling folks youre pathetic when youve already come so far?
I mean, again, I appreciate the effort to help. Most people just dogpile on me the moment I show any sign of weakness. But I don’t think this is something I can recover from.
You correctly identified that I do have low self-esteem. It comes from a combination of childhood trauma and a lifetime of put-downs, social rejection, and ostracization.
If someone does this its called a them problem, not a you problem.
Right, but if everyone around me has a “them problem,” then I can’t exactly point that out or they’ll just tell me something like “If everyone around you is an asshole, you’re the asshole” without examining things like cultural assholery or widespread social stigma. Yes, I live in a conservative area, and most people around me are assholes, but it has messed with my mind at times. I do look internally and examine myself and try to find the reasons why maybe I’m the one who’s wrong. That doesn’t help me low self-esteem though, and it doesn’t change the cultural environment that I’m in. It feels kinda like being collectively gaslit at times.
But I’ve tried moving to more progressive areas too, and it’s tough because I struggle to make friends anyway. And it seems like everyone there assumes I’m a conservative, either because of my demographic, or because of where I’m from, or how I talk (I have kind of a mumble common in rural areas, and if I try to annunciate it sounds stiff and forced; also don’t really know the urban lingo, and even if I try to emulate it I sound cringe, like an old man trying to be hip), or because I don’t know how to navigate around all the potential faux pas, or I don’t understand all the cultural references. And ultimately I get more hate in these areas because I stand out more; versus where I’m from as long as I keep my mouth shut nobody knows that I’m really a socialist and that I hate all maga fascists, so I can at least slide under the radar. Except for when I try to socialize and people pin me out as weird, of course).
So yeah, most people call me arrogant if I have the audacity to expect the same respect that everyone else deserves. To conservatives, it’s because nobody deserves respect unless they’re born into wealth and status; to progressives, it’s because a white man demanding basic respect is basically the same thing as white supremacy and male chauvinism.
I’m tired too.
Yeah, I am a goofball. I used to like being a goofball, but apparently society hates it so I’m not allowed to love that about myself. Everything I used to appreciate about myself (which was challenging to find in the first place, and I had to make a deliberate effort in therapy and during my self-help years) got labeled as “arrogance,” “vanity,” “self-centeredness,” etc… It’s like I’m not allowed to have self-love. Again, it’s because to conservatives no one is allowed to love themselves (except the privileged, of course), and to progressives, cishet white men aren’t allowed to love themselves. It’s a rock and a hard place.
you might as well stand there with a knife faced inward when you talk about yourself this way
I have often enough, both literally and figuratively. But don’t worry, I’m not at risk of that anymore. I think that phase of my struggle is firmly in the past.
my family were my first bullies
Same.
we ignore bullies
It’s hard when they’re the only people you have interactions with on a regular basis. They’re much more subtle about their disapproval now, enough that I can pretend the undertones aren’t there anymore. It keeps the peace.
whoever called you pathetic growing up was a weak little liar putting a child down
Yes. But no one cares about my childhood trauma, they just tell me to “grow up and get over it,” which ignores the clinical definition of trauma and the complex, long-term, cognitive developmental consequences of growing up in that kind of environment.
why not care for those wounds eh?
All I can do at this point is massage the scar tissue, but that’s not going away.
yeah, healing takes years and struggle will always be present
Yes.
but how you handle that struggle internally, without blaming and criticizing yourself, that will make a difference.
But I know I’m not perfect. Trauma embedded itself in my cognitive patterns, I internalized some of the programming, and earlier in my adulthood I made some serious mistakes that caused pain for other people. It feels wrong to give myself a pass for that, but there’s no path to redemption either because in this world genuine remorse is viewed as a weakness to dogpile on. Even admitting that I’ve never been perfect seems to be taken as free license to accuse me of all the worst things they can imagine. And if I say “No, I’ve never done that,” then they point to the (much lesser) mistakes that I have made and openly acknowledge, as if that somehow proves that I’m guilty of everything that anyone can accuse me of…
“Own your mistakes!” I do! But that ain’t one of them.
most outward human “failures”, like not hitting life benchmarks or whatever, are systemic anyway
Yeah, I rejected social standards of “success,” but now everyone views me as a worthless flop. My firm philosophical conviction that “success” isn’t defined by the extrinsic factors dictated by capitalist systems has amounted to nothing.
haha but this is life. Without struggle there are no wins and everyone “loses” sometimes. Im losing the game of life right now myself.
I’m sorry to hear you’re feeling that way, and I hope you’ll pull through. I think you will. It’s extremely rare for someone to be as hopeless as I am, which is why I understand why you’re still trying to be encouraging.
Last couple years youve made progress? yeah? that is dope! look how much youve done! I bet it hasnt been an easy road! That is not pathetic mate. So why the fuck you out here lying, telling folks youre pathetic when youve already come so far?
I’ve made progress learning to cope with my situation. It’s the acceptance stage of grief. Even in therapy the goal shifted from “getting better” to “learning coping mechanisms,” as if my therapist expected me not to even notice!
Very true, in a lot of ways I imagine it takes a lot of confidence to be “pathetic” in a way that was being referred to initially and confidence goes a long way, especially if it isn’t arrogant or hurtful towards others.
I agree, I specifically said that part because our discussion helped me get to that same point. I tried to communicate that in my post with the quotes around pathetic.
Which one is the socially acceptable one?
making light…
you see that (missed) shot? haha nba here I come!
its funny cuz you missed.
And how is that different from self-deprecation?
Without any examples and as a third party to this discussion I would guess it’s probably because one is said with a positive albeit sarcastic yet chipper delivery. Self deprecation sounds more negative or pouty to me which can be a huge turn off. Even if someone is really good at something when they are always negative about themselves it gets old really fast.
Well I have chronic depression so if I try to sound chipper it will sound insincere.
If women really found pathetic men attractive I would be a total catch.
The fact is, that the guy who missed the shot was on the team, so he can’t be that pathetic…
I have cronic depression too.
Better to say nothing then, or even to be an incincere positive is infact better. Least you tried in that case. One thing I was taught, that helps, is to stop all negative self talk, both outloud and in my head, as soon as I realize I am doing it. example: “Im so fucking stupid” Wait, I am not stupid “actually, I made a mistake and I feel embarrassed”. Reframe. The second statement is more honest anyway.
I was reluctant to try this at first because it seems foolish, but after making an effort, it, um, helps, a lot more than I thought.
Could you try that? Nix the neg. self talk?
You did it just now here, “…women really found pathetic men attractive I would be a total catch”. Stop that shit, there is literally no point in calling yourself pathetic except to self harm ur psyche. So, could you please, work on calling yourself out for it? Quit negative self talk, and maybe you can be funny again like the rest of us depressed folk.
as for the meme, mad people play pick up basket ball. We dont know if the person in the post was on an offical team or not.
I appreciate the effort to be helpful, and I do see your point, but honestly I tried for so long to “get better” that it ultimately ended up feeling more like a carrot on a stick. It was more painful to hold out hope that I could get better, while slowly realizing that I probably never will, than it was to simply accept that I’ll always be this way and learn to make my peace with that instead.
And in the past couple years, I’ve made more progress merely in terms of peace of mind, just by accepting that my life will probably never get better, than I did in all the years of earnestly (and at times desperately) striving to get better and improve my life or the world around me.
As long as it felt like there was a chance, I yearned for it. Now that I’ve lost all hope, I’m at peace. It sounds paradoxical and contradictory, but I’ve been much more mentally stable lately and it’s now been over a year since my last trip to a mental hospital. And for me that’s an accomplishment.
As for the negative self-talk, I do have boundaries. There are some things that seriously bother me and I know which of my own buttons not to push. Usually stuff related to the things I’ve been put down by others for throughout my life.
But if having dark humor about my depression or being a social outcast helps me cope, then why can’t I? People act like that’s so toxic, but they also treat depression like it’s contagious and basically shun me for even talking about it. So what’s more toxic, my self-deprecation or the social stigma that’s attached to mental health?
I just find it kind of insulting that people avoid me because I’m so pathetic, but for some reason I’m not allowed to acknowledge how pathetic I am? As if I’m supposed to be completely oblivious and totally lacking in self-awareness?
Even if I tried being confident people would just call me arrogant because deep down I have nothing really to feel confident about. And this sort of mixed messaging has been weaponized against me my whole life. This back-and-forth where any time I take people’s advice, they turn around and fault me for that too.
No matter what I do, it’s always the wrong thing. So I’m done trying to please people. Just let me be pathetic, it’s much better for my mental health than pretending I’m anything else.
I just woke up and skimmed this, and no youre not allowed to acknowledge… (honestly eye roll) how pathetic you are. I been feeling a little pathetic myself too lately, but I dont thrust that out into the open.
why do you feel “pathetic”, specifically? dont tell me, tell yourself, and then work on mitigating it, or accepting those things about yourself.
DONT PLEASE PEOPLE, PLEASE YOURSELF (haha not like that) but i mean do things for yourself not others. Confidence isnt “to get something, or to impress someone” confedence is not hating yourself, carrying healthly self esteem and knowing yourself well.
so, adding to the list, stop the neg. self talk, and, reconize you might have some low self esteem here. Reads this way anyway.
“someone (who I ask, do not hang with assholes) will call me arrogant if I show confidence, because I have nothing to be confident about”. If someone does this its called a them problem, not a you problem. Were you being arrogant in that moment? you really dont think so? maybe you were? perhaps you didnt mean to? “im sorry that wasnt my intention”. And then avoid name callers? idk, Im tired.
youre being a goofball and really should learn what you like about yourself, and lean into that. Set those boundaries to a larger parameter because what the hey man- you mine as well stand there with a knife faced inward when you talk about yourself this way
my family were my first bullies, we ignore bullies, whoever called you pathetic growing up was a weak little liar putting a child down, they sound pathetic, and why not care for those wounds eh? sorry yeah, healing takes years and struggle will always be present, but how you handle that struggle internally, without blaming and critizing yourself, that will make a difference. most outward human “failures”, like not hitting life benchmarks or whatever, are systemic anyway. feel good bout urself despite them. take a break, but youll be “trying” til your dead, so enjoy that ;) haha but this is life. Without stuggle there are no wins and everyone “loses” sometimes. Im losing the game of life right now myself. Id rather call it reaching a transitory stage… but, acceptence and komorebi at my side, it will pass. Just because I feel like a loser right now, doesnt mean thats who I am at my core. I feel pathetic I cant quit tobacco, but, im still not pathetic at my core, I know this.
youre not pathetic, my cat begging for treats is pathetic, adults who put down young people down are pathetic, unless you yourself are being a cunt to everyone around you for no fucking reason and telling some kid theyll never amount to nothing, pretty certain youre redeemable and fine, my ignorence tends to believe most people are redeemable. Life sucks and beats the shit out of most, lets not let it win. set the boundary parameter wider, and stop calling yourself pathetic. Last couple years youve made progress? yeah? that is dope! look how much youve done! I bet it hasnt been an easy road! That is not pathetic mate. So why the fuck you out here lying, telling folks youre pathetic when youve already come so far?
I mean, again, I appreciate the effort to help. Most people just dogpile on me the moment I show any sign of weakness. But I don’t think this is something I can recover from.
You correctly identified that I do have low self-esteem. It comes from a combination of childhood trauma and a lifetime of put-downs, social rejection, and ostracization.
Right, but if everyone around me has a “them problem,” then I can’t exactly point that out or they’ll just tell me something like “If everyone around you is an asshole, you’re the asshole” without examining things like cultural assholery or widespread social stigma. Yes, I live in a conservative area, and most people around me are assholes, but it has messed with my mind at times. I do look internally and examine myself and try to find the reasons why maybe I’m the one who’s wrong. That doesn’t help me low self-esteem though, and it doesn’t change the cultural environment that I’m in. It feels kinda like being collectively gaslit at times.
But I’ve tried moving to more progressive areas too, and it’s tough because I struggle to make friends anyway. And it seems like everyone there assumes I’m a conservative, either because of my demographic, or because of where I’m from, or how I talk (I have kind of a mumble common in rural areas, and if I try to annunciate it sounds stiff and forced; also don’t really know the urban lingo, and even if I try to emulate it I sound cringe, like an old man trying to be hip), or because I don’t know how to navigate around all the potential faux pas, or I don’t understand all the cultural references. And ultimately I get more hate in these areas because I stand out more; versus where I’m from as long as I keep my mouth shut nobody knows that I’m really a socialist and that I hate all maga fascists, so I can at least slide under the radar. Except for when I try to socialize and people pin me out as weird, of course).
So yeah, most people call me arrogant if I have the audacity to expect the same respect that everyone else deserves. To conservatives, it’s because nobody deserves respect unless they’re born into wealth and status; to progressives, it’s because a white man demanding basic respect is basically the same thing as white supremacy and male chauvinism.
I’m tired too.
Yeah, I am a goofball. I used to like being a goofball, but apparently society hates it so I’m not allowed to love that about myself. Everything I used to appreciate about myself (which was challenging to find in the first place, and I had to make a deliberate effort in therapy and during my self-help years) got labeled as “arrogance,” “vanity,” “self-centeredness,” etc… It’s like I’m not allowed to have self-love. Again, it’s because to conservatives no one is allowed to love themselves (except the privileged, of course), and to progressives, cishet white men aren’t allowed to love themselves. It’s a rock and a hard place.
I have often enough, both literally and figuratively. But don’t worry, I’m not at risk of that anymore. I think that phase of my struggle is firmly in the past.
Same.
It’s hard when they’re the only people you have interactions with on a regular basis. They’re much more subtle about their disapproval now, enough that I can pretend the undertones aren’t there anymore. It keeps the peace.
Yes. But no one cares about my childhood trauma, they just tell me to “grow up and get over it,” which ignores the clinical definition of trauma and the complex, long-term, cognitive developmental consequences of growing up in that kind of environment.
All I can do at this point is massage the scar tissue, but that’s not going away.
Yes.
But I know I’m not perfect. Trauma embedded itself in my cognitive patterns, I internalized some of the programming, and earlier in my adulthood I made some serious mistakes that caused pain for other people. It feels wrong to give myself a pass for that, but there’s no path to redemption either because in this world genuine remorse is viewed as a weakness to dogpile on. Even admitting that I’ve never been perfect seems to be taken as free license to accuse me of all the worst things they can imagine. And if I say “No, I’ve never done that,” then they point to the (much lesser) mistakes that I have made and openly acknowledge, as if that somehow proves that I’m guilty of everything that anyone can accuse me of…
“Own your mistakes!” I do! But that ain’t one of them.
Yeah, I rejected social standards of “success,” but now everyone views me as a worthless flop. My firm philosophical conviction that “success” isn’t defined by the extrinsic factors dictated by capitalist systems has amounted to nothing.
I’m sorry to hear you’re feeling that way, and I hope you’ll pull through. I think you will. It’s extremely rare for someone to be as hopeless as I am, which is why I understand why you’re still trying to be encouraging.
I’ve made progress learning to cope with my situation. It’s the acceptance stage of grief. Even in therapy the goal shifted from “getting better” to “learning coping mechanisms,” as if my therapist expected me not to even notice!
Very true, in a lot of ways I imagine it takes a lot of confidence to be “pathetic” in a way that was being referred to initially and confidence goes a long way, especially if it isn’t arrogant or hurtful towards others.
If they have confidence, then they can’t be very pathetic. Unless OOP and I have different definitions of pathetic…
I agree, I specifically said that part because our discussion helped me get to that same point. I tried to communicate that in my post with the quotes around pathetic.