Content Warning: The topic discussed is about consumption of explicit material under 18 on Tumblr (I disagree with what they said, by the way)
Context: This person was talking about children being an oppressed group in many societies around the world and the excuse some people use (protecting children) to do so.
"And many of the rules that are currently pushed for to “protect” children from evil things like checks notes porn and horror movies and serial kidnappers that do not actually exist "
“What is there to be confused by? The vast majority of teens will in some way consume porn - and always have done that. You cannot really prevent it. The best you can do is make sure that they so in a safe environment”
I think this is a trash take. Am I overreacting to this?
Edit: I reported it already for being gross. Also, for context, I am very triggered by anything related to children.
yes, the production and distribution of pornography should absolutely be banned, it is abhorrent and destructive both for the people being exploited in the pornography and the consumers of pornography, especially if they are children. in lieu of that, offering a controlled environment for kids to experience things of that nature is better than them experiencing it for themselves and not having guidance for how horrible and destructive those kind of things can be. in both cases, educating children as to why things like that are banned (because they are harmful and not because they’re “super cool”) is obviously important. but frankly i don’t buy the whole “there’s no point in banning it because they’ll always get access to it” argument: access should be made as difficult and as challenging as possible, to increase the barrier to entry.
I do think that specifically 18+ content done for money should be banned because full consent cannot be guaranteed when money changes hands, but I personally have no problem with 18+ content produced and distributed with no expectation or desire for monetization.
i understand that sentiment and i think it’s rational, but pornography where there is an exchange of money accounts for, what, 99.9% of today’s pornography? from the original producers (whether they be artists, actors, directors, editors, etc) to distributors (ranging from small websites that also produce to huge platforms like onlyfans), to the whole host of third party content resharers that make the majority of their revenue from ads, the vast, vast majority of pornography production involves an exchange of money. i think as marxists we have to take the labor theory of value pretty seriously here: the liberals are in a way correct when they exclaim that “sex work is work,” in the sense that (in a world where your needs are not guaranteed) anyone participating in the act of pornography creation/distribution has a material interest in seeking compensation for their labor, and it is that interest that would be squashed with a full ban on pornography production and distribution.
because, not to be pedantic, what about nonfinancial compensation for pornography production, or sex work in general? i imagine we would all agree that, for example, an exchange of goods/services (i.e. crystallized labor power) in return for sex is just as bad as prostitution where money (i.e. a more liquid and exchangeable crystallized labor power) exchanges hands. in fact it’s potentially even worse, because it’s harder to write laws against and harder to enforce those laws. a full ban on pornography production/distribution avoids these potential loopholes to ensure no one (or, the least number of people possible, accepting the near certainty of a black market) have a material interest in pornography.
furthermore, pornography is obviously problematic because of its deep ties to and representation of patriarchy. it affects how people view and consequently engage in sex, and in what erotic art people might make as well. i think it’s perfectly fine to ban all erotic art until the commodity form is abolished. i don’t believe that free expression is more important than the minds and lives of all those who are touched and affected by pornography.
just to clarify, no, this does not apply to nudes sent between consenting adults in the same way that a ban on prostitution is not a ban on sex. and no, i don’t necessarily think a full ban is something that should be implemented immediately but something that should be worked towards in stages.
I do think that expression of your sexuality without expectation of anything in return does exist right now and will exist in the future.
i completely agree with your statement, so i’m not really sure where our contradiction lies.
I disagree with the idea that being sexually open should be banned.
okay, in your own words define what you mean by “being sexually open.”
I mean openly expressing your sexuality without expectation of anything in return.
I believe that the problem is right now that the patriarchy has only legitimized 18+ content done for money because it is still a method of control, just replacing morals with money.
People who express themselves sexually online while rejecting any compensation should be allowed to do so.
what, in your view, does this entail? what are some examples, real or hypothetical?
can you elaborate more on this? in what way do you believe it is a method of control (control over whom and via what means)? we live under capitalism, so what role do you see the profit motive and material interest playing in the production of adult content?
oh a controversial opinion, but one I appreciate nonetheless because I am glad to see differing perspectives on this post. I do wonder what Marxists here think of China’s attitude towards pornography (I think they ban it completely?).
little surprised it’s controversial tbh haha. the whole “sex work is work!” thing is a liberal feminist trope. pornography production should be banned just like pimping should be banned.
from what i’ve heard/read on the issue, there is a soft ban on pornography in china in the sense that it is made more difficult to access, but if you do there are not significant consequences incurred, which i think is fine. as far as pornography production is concerned i’m not sure.
Liberal feminists be capitulationists, yo. I think that the industry around that is inherently unhealthy (because of how it treats women), so simply letting women “choose” to participate in it (some certainly do not consider it a chance, especially if they are poor).
Hmm, I thought it was more of a hard ban with strict laws relating to it, but maybe not. Do you think China’s way of handling it is the right way?
exactly. i would go so far as to say that the vast majority of the participants in the sex industry do not feel like they have a choice in the matter. the most successful, you might call them the “sex industry bourgeoisie,” are the most notable and the most famous, and consequently the most likely to praise the industry for how feminist it is. the millions of people captured in the industry with no way to exit it (either implicitly through material interests or explicitly through sex trafficking) are rarely heard from.
i’m not sure! i imagine it’s the way best suited to china’s own material conditions, but i think the west is a little different in the sense that we’ve had more time to economically develop and therefore have developed more as it relates to patriarchy and capitalist patriarchy. i’m not entirely sure how that would affect laws or their implementation, though. i do think a hard ban on pornography production/distribution is primarily to the benefit of those who would otherwise be caught up in the industry, so making sure not to criminalize victims of the industry is important. victims should be given any possible opportunities to exit the industry. we also have a huge pornography industry already, so a hard ban right away would probably not be the best idea, but rather doing it in stages. those are just a few of my ideas, i’d have to think about it for longer to have a more complete answer for you.
I’m not sure. China is a massive place with different politicians everywhere. I see people on Rednote talk and boast about consuming porn in the face of “western puritans”. It may depend on the type of porn.
I am not sure who the western puritans are (maybe republicans), since I do not think America bans pornography (outside of egregiously illegal examples that I do not need to list here); boasting about consuming that material is weird regardless.
Quite right. What’s wrong with weird?
The western puritans are a large group of internet-goers who police sexual expression and thought and go to absolutely absurd lengths to expose, harass, or dox people who have them. People on Rednote compared them to colonialists.
There is nothing wrong with being weird, but bragging about consumption of that adult material is not really something I understand; why would you do it?
Oh, those people sound annoying. I get not wanting to have pornography be legal, but harassing people is not a way of fighting patriarchy (and I doubt they are the type to even care about patriarchy anyways).
Why? In response to the aforementioned westerners. “We can consume what you hate and you gringos can’t stop us” kind of stuff.
“Consumption” is another strange term to me, one that underestimate how accessible porn is. It doesn’t get consumed. 1,000 people can view the same porn 1,000 times and copy and distribute it endlessly. It doesn’t get used up like a drug.