AFAIK, there is only one major cultural group with a history somewhat compatible with veganism (Jainism (?)) and almost every other culture has a carnist dominance. Sure, people in earlier periods ate less meat and did not have the nutritional abundance of today to sustain philosophies like veganism, but a lack of food culture is still somewhat a shortcoming.
I’ve been vegan for 8-9 years now and I’m now more aware that veganism as a philosophy sprung out of industrial society: On the one hand as moral reaction to agricultural industrialisation, but also building on top of the agricultural surplus and relative stability of logistics networks. There is also the increase in levels of education since the industrial revolution to consider.
Anyways, given the cultural recency and tendency of cultural nihilism of industrial society, I doubt that many longstanding food culture traditions can or will be convertable in the long run. This on its own isn’t good or bad, but we’re living in an odd era when it comes to veganism: Veganism is relevant enough to be viable without too much practical hassle, but it is still very far from socially normalised in most societal groups aside from certain leftist groups. It is still a conscious and conscientious and perseverant decision to be vegan. Everyone probably experienced a carnist cultural event where they had to explain how or if they specifically will participate - I see this as the indicator that veganism in its respective cultures is not normalised yet.
FOR BAD FAITH ACTORS ONLY
No, this not an argument against veganism (it is a vegan-centric to-do list), because it doesn’t negate the arguments for veganism.
a non vegan comment
I’m neither vegan nor vegetarian and even I get gloomy about the same thing.
It’s vexing that when I want a vegetarian or vegan meal there’s often some stupid cultural baggage that comes with it.
That is what meat replacement products are for. Seriously Oktoberfest , which is hardly a vegan festival, manages to have vegan options in basically every tent thanks to that.
Also food culture is changing over time. Pizza was a mostly Italian dish a century ago. Today there are pizza chains in Japan all over the country.
For a bit of perspective: I was brought up vegetarian and was surrounded by other vegetarians as a child. My parents were vegetarian and I’m bringing up my children vegetarian (more vegan actually).
Eating meat has essentially become unthinkable in the micro-culture and tradition of my family, and I expect this to continue. There is no ‘perseverence’ in it - it’s simply a fact about what we consider to be food.
I expect there to be non-meat options and don’t feel socially excluded because my diet is non-typical, because this is how I was brought up and how my values were shaped as a child. It was more controversial in my parents day, but I’m grateful that they made the decision and that mainstream culture has become mostly accepting of it now.
I guess what I want to say is a) you exert an influence on culture, even if it takes time, generations even, and b) you can afford to not be overly sensitive to social judgement.
Anyways, given the cultural recency and tendency of cultural nihilism of industrial society, I doubt that many longstanding food culture traditions can or will be convertable in the long run.
To me thats a good thing. I had a vegan burger and they made the patty so convincing I thought I was eating flesh. It was revolting, why would we want to normalize food that mimics a fucking corpse for future generations?
Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.
Like yeah we are dealt this hand by the generations before us and we have to make the best of it, but lets also be mindful of how we are passing things on.
From a cultural preservation perspective, hopefully lab-grown meat becomes affordable and good soon enough that it can take its place before the traditions are forgotten.
And in the long arc of history tofu may become as diverse as cheese and people may obsess over gardening practices to modulate flavor as much as they obsess over cuts of meat.
For now, vegans are paving the way, and have the opportunity to start new traditions that aren’t built on the suffering of others.
nitpicking
Technical point on the “for bad faith actors” section: it is an argument for carnism, just not a sufficient one.
From a cultural preservation perspective, hopefully lab-grown meat becomes affordable and good soon enough that it can take its place before the traditions are forgotten.
I hate this lab-grown meat fad for the simple fact that it keeps people from going fully vegan. “Once I can have all the exact same treats for the exact same price, once I do not have to sacrifice anything, only then will I no longer be part of the animal holocaust”. But I guarantee once we lab-grown meat it will be something else they find. Cheese likely, it never ends with these treatlerites. It pulls the focus away from those who have to suffer and to the treats the babyeaters would “lose”.
I don’t think that’s how people work. When people are defensive, they would rather be cruel than change their ways. Lab-grown meat as an argument is a convenient weapon, but any argument would do, and if they can find no argument they’ll wear cruelty like a badge of honor. That’s basically the MAGA movement in a nutshell. And if they’re genuinely open to being empathetic towards animals, they can see the suffering of every animal they murder while waiting for a more convenient time.
Whether or not someone eats meat in any given meal depends on whether, in that moment, the weight of taking a life is heavier than the inconvenience of unfamiliar ingredients. But above a certain point that weight stops getting heavier, it becomes something to dissociate from or set aside. Carnists know they are killing animals whenever they eat meat, and if things stay as they are they will continue to do so.
For governments, meat alternatives versus other forms of promoting veganism is a false choice. It saves money to cut subsidies to the meat industry, and it generates revenue to tax meat. Ban meat and half the agricultural land can be used for food exports or other even more profitable enterprises. For charities looking to promote veganism, meat alternatives do no harm, though I could see it not being worth the investment compared to teaching people how to be vegan with existing options. For individuals, meat alternatives do make that switch easier.
Speaking for myself, my acknowledgement of the harm I’m causing by participating in capitalism to live is maxed out. I tried being harder on myself and I got burned out and depressed. Now I search for ways to have joy outside capitalist modes of production and I can actually make those changes. Meat alternatives helped me transition towards veganism after reminding myself of my complicity in animal deaths got me to be complicit and miserable.
When people are defensive, they would rather be cruel than change their ways. Lab-grown meat as an argument is a convenient weapon, but any argument would do, and if they can find no argument they’ll wear cruelty like a badge of honor. That’s basically the MAGA movement in a nutshell. And if they’re genuinely open to being empathetic towards animals, they can see the suffering of every animal they murder while waiting for a more convenient time.
I’m not sure I understand, because that’s the argument I’m making. “Eventually affordable cruelty-free meat” gives the fence sitters a cushion to delay making a commitment. And we need people to make a hard commitment, either against veganism (i. e. nothing changes) or for veganism (i. e. suffering reduces). There are a certain type of people that wear cruelty like a badge of honor. There was no convincing them anyway. But for most people I would think the cognitive dissonance (“I don’t like being cruel <-> I am being cruel”) simply has to outweigh “I don’t like change and having to give up comforting food”.
And I understand that meat-alternatives tip the scales by making the “comfort argument” counter-balance lighter, which is great. I am hugely in favor of that. But there are a couple things that I feel one needs to be mindful of.
a) The focus gets shifted away from the animals and to the “sacrifices” the (former?) oppressor has to make
b) Substituting meat with vegan alternatives means that if someone decides they are “done sacrificing” comfort, they can simply substitute back. It’s even easier if the cruelty a non-vegan lifestyle entails is not as present as the “sacrifices” the supposed vegan makes on a “daily basis” (no moms milk in my coffee)
c) It makes it harder for children of vegan parents to recognise vegan food vs non-vegan food. Yeah we eat salami at home, so why shouldn’t I eat the salami in the kindergarden? I wish we had more of an alienation from non-vegan food from the beginning with our kids.It’s the nicotine patches argument all over again lol. I’m not against meat-alternatives per se, but (here in Germany) there’s such a huge huge trend to offer all kinds of alternatives with little thought given to how we should be approaching this problem. Free nicotine patches to all addicts sounds great but there needs to be a movement for moving past “nicotine addiction” in general which I’m not seeing anywhere.
With the lab-grown meat stuff I fear all the points above amplified 100fold. It’s essentially meat. Plus since it’s not a practicable alternative it currently (and since for the past i dont know how many years it’s been now) actually makes the “cruelty” cognitive dissonance lighter by giving it an “eventually”. The “once all the stress is gone I’ll give up smoking” argument. Like yeah don’t quit smoking a week before a big exam, but don’t wait until you can afford a beach vacation either. Hope that makes sense, in a vegan context it’s of course a bit different because the stakes are quite a bit higher. Do give up murdering as soon as possible. An exam is not more important than someones life.
For governments, meat alternatives versus other forms of promoting veganism is a false choice. It saves money to cut subsidies to the meat industry, and it generates revenue to tax meat. Ban meat and half the agricultural land can be used for food exports or other even more profitable enterprises. For charities looking to promote veganism, meat alternatives do no harm, though I could see it not being worth the investment compared to teaching people how to be vegan with existing options. For individuals, meat alternatives do make that switch easier.
💯
Speaking for myself, my acknowledgement of the harm I’m causing by participating in capitalism to live is maxed out. I tried being harder on myself and I got burned out and depressed. Now I search for ways to have joy outside capitalist modes of production and I can actually make those changes. Meat alternatives helped me transition towards veganism after reminding myself of my complicity in animal deaths got me to be complicit and miserable.
I feel you. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Being vegan makes one very concious of that. And advocating veganism makes one concious of all the other counter-arguments one makes against other kinds of activism (antiracism, pro-queer etc.). Like I feel much more empathetic to the exhaustion at having to debate with white dudebros about the merits of having a chance at a dignified life.
