My original question was “How do we disincentivize the purchase of pickup trucks/SUVs” but then I thought it would be better to approach the larger problem of car dependency and car ownership. One option is, of course, to create public transit infrastructure and improve it where it already exist. This, however, doesn’t change the fact that some will still choose to drive. What would be the best ways to discourage people from owning personal cars?
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don’t discourage people from owning personal cars. most of the time this mentality is just a tax on the poor.
Flip the idea. Encourage people to not use cars instead.
- not just bike lanes, but bike storage & lockers
- not just public transport, but better connections between transport modes (buses with bike carriers, train stations with better car parking and bike lockers and bus connections)
- more small car parking bays with all large truck bays further away from the stores
- more motorcycle parking bays
- cheaper motorcycle registration, etc.
it’s all about spending money and effort in the areas you want it. Not about being restrictive.
it’s a slower method of conversion, but more effective.
By making it a poor choice, which you do by providing a better alternative that is cheaper.
Not much you can do without them reacting the opposing way.
One solution is for example 15 minute cities. I’ve never felt like I wanted a car living in Montréal because it’s literally faster and more convenient to just walk there. I rarely even needed to use the metro. Genuinely healthier way of life.
And then the F350 owners all go that’s just the first step, they won’t allow you to go outside of your city, blah blah blah.
The thing is it’s been drilled into so many people’s heads that a car is essential that everything that deviates from driving your car wherever you go is seen as a direct attack on personal freedoms, your right to go wherever you want and all that.
People also seem to rely a lot on their cars as a status symbol. Look, I’m broke AF but I got a brand new giant boat of an SUV… to go work in an office on a computer everyday. So many trucks have perfect mint condition never used truck beds. But you gotta have a truck to show you’re a hard working manly man.
There’s nothing you can do to change those people. They’ll make a F950 and run it coal just to spite you. We’ll be stuck with the status quo as long as egocentric people exist. Because you can’t inconvenience them for the sake of others, they don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves.
The problem with 15 minute cities is the last few thousand years of people giving an inch and the government taking every mile they can. People who took history class and have pattern recognition skills often see that pattern in things.
Do you really think that 15 minute cities wont be enshittified?
The problem with 15 minute cities is the last few thousand years of people giving an inch and the government taking every mile they can. People who took history class and have pattern recognition skills often see that pattern in things.
Do you really think that 15 minute cities wont be enshittified?
Lately I’ve been pointing out that most drives people take regularly are only a mile or two long. It’s a hit and miss argument though. Probably more useful for getting people on board with smaller, lighter, cars than getting them out of cars entirely.
I can drive a mile or two in a couple minutes, in any weather, at any time of day. I can get a full supply of groceries or heavy bulky items at any moment. Far less common, but I also have extra clothes, a stocked medical bag, and other stuff wherever I go. I can do this all on my time frame in an instant’s notice. I can get across town to help when they need to get to urgent care quick, or think someone is breaking in. I can get to the hospital if I need it, I can leave town in a hurry, I can visit my parents 4hrs away at any moment.
I guess if public transit could do that, I would take it. The autonomy of having a car means they are not going anywhere. The absolute best you will possibly do it reduce car use. I rarely grocery shop anymore because our local store has a bizarrely affordable home delivery option. If I can pay $10+cost for groceries, I am not driving 15min to the store on a busy weekend. I would carpool to work, but what if I had to leave early, or had to go to a friend/family emergency…20min for the local cab to even get to me is not acceptable in the second scenario.
Autonomy and convenience are what you are looking to remove/replace. I am not saying there isn’t a path. It is worth looking into it, for sure. I just don’t see it, yet.
Autonomy is enjoyable. I understand keeping a car for that purpose in today’s cities. However, if there were multiple methods of crossing the city in a similar timeframe, keeping a car is a high expense. It is possible to have light rail and bus services in a city where no one waits at any stop more than a few minutes because of the high frequency. Imagine if you had access to a $5 trip across your city in the same time it takes currently to drive. Sure, I’m being idealistic here, but in that scenario, why drive when you can be driven?
I assume you took a look at the page I linked, but if not, the figures that 52% of trips are less than three miles are not of all trips ever taken. They are for daily, regularly occurring, expected trips. This removes from consideration that odd trip out of town, those summer trips to the lumber yard, and certainly the emergency hospital visits.
For all these out of the norm trips, keep your car. With good public transit, you don’t even need to check a schedule. Just hop on something that’s going towards your destination. Use it for your commute, for your trips to see friends, for going out with your spouse. Use the car when something comes up unexpectedly.
I’m not trying to rag on you specifically, but I’ll go over your examples of non regular trips you either make or are prepared for:
Going to get groceries on a whim;
Wouldn’t it be nice to live a few minutes walk from a grocery? Everyone should, given we must eat. Imagine if supermarket departments were instead their own shops, distributed through your neighbourhood.
Bulky purchases;
Not sure what you had in mind, but furniture, major appliances, lumber, yard mulch, garden stones, etc, can all be delivered. Yes, often at a fee, but if you’re buying something like this once or twice a year, it’s well cheaper than a car.
Driving across town to bring someone else to an emergency room;
If you’re talking a scheduled doctors visit, then these aren’t on a moments notice events. As far as actual, proper emergencies go, ignoring the existence of ambulance service, even if you no longer had a car, there’s probably cars around you. I’ve waived a stranger down on the road for a trip to the hospital. I’ve knocked on the door of people I don’t know that had a car in the driveway. By and large, people will help you in such a scenario. I’m also sure that coworkers would offer up their car if a family member wound up in the hospital when you’d ridden a bike to work.
A home burglary
Here I’m at a disadvantage, given I don’t live somewhere the odds of this are even one in a million. I suppose I’ll just say that car ownership for this situation seems more costly than a decent security system and maybe life insurance.
I’ll leave off with the suggestion that if you can broaden your horizons, there are a large number of places in existence today that have multiple methods of local - and even high speed regional - transit where the autonomy and convenience people gain in their lives by not being chained to a personal vehicle is undeniable. Cost savings for the car free citizens; cost savings for the municipality or country; better physical health on average; less pollution; less noise.
Best part about getting people out of cars? Less traffic people who keep their cars.
More grocery stores is not a great option for a number of reasons. A more effective distribution hub would be ideal (it’s biggest flaw being the single point of failure).
The bulky purchases counterpoint is fair. I would prefer just driving to get a bunch of soil or supplies for a project. Having to rely on an outside person to get the right stuff, deliver it in a reasonable time, and not having the “oh right I need this too” of walking the isles when kitting up for a project are bigger losses imo than I think people realize. The number of times I went for one thing, then spent a little time price checking other things in the isle or discovering something new is noteworthy. I have groceries delivered now…it is not a great system (yet!) but worth expansion.
The emergency room and burglary ones are definitely outliers and purposefully used on my part, but having solutions for an emergency need is not to be discounted because “it rarely happens”. That one I don’t think I can budge on. (The life insurance comment was a bit ignorant, but you seem to be commenting in good faith. I’d rather have someone not die over getting a life insurance payout)
I agree that walking is great and cars are detrimental on the whole. I can’t think of a good fix for the system and don’t think the fantasy ideas often given are good. Honestly I only really debate them to be devil’s advocate and help strengthen the debate from your side, because you need outside viewpoints to do that.
I appreciate the reply.
Oh the life insurance thing I had meant health insurance, thinking if you get injured during the burglary, your deductible would still be cheaper than purchasing an entire car. Complete flub on my part.
I’ve certainly changed an entire project based on some thing I didn’t know existed in the hardware store before. Walking around and looking at various things can be useful. In this regard I am an outlier in that I have a cargo trailer for my bike that I do use for bringing home small lumber and odds and ends. Definitely not ideal when I’ve realized I forgot something, but that’s fortunately a rarity.
You mentioned soil. I’m going to guess you’re talking about those bags they have in the garden centre. I can’t think of anything I’ve done where I only needed a few of those personally. The times I needed topsoil or mulch or stone, I’ve just gotten either a yard delivered in one of those square bags, or a larger amount from a tilt truck.
What we disagree on is the grocery store point. While I don’t now, not too long ago I lived in an area where a couple bakeries, a deli, a butcher with weird hours, and a small produce / vegetable market were all within walking distance. This allowed me to pop by on my way home to grab something for the evening. I did this most days, and at most it added ten minutes to my journey. Not hyperbole here, I would take a street or two detour and be in and out in a few minutes with the few things I needed.
Given these places didn’t have parking lots akin to a modern Walmart or Target, it was always easy to get in and out without navigating through a sea of parked sedans making the entrance to the store hundreds of feet from the sidewalk. We didn’t need to do the weekly or biweekly hour or longer trips to the shops. I did that when I was a child and I greatly prefer frequent handfuls of purchases to loading up a trolley.
Kind of like performing oil changes every few months or whenever instead of changing the motor every other year. Maybe not a great analogy but you get my point I’m sure.
Having these huge superstores set up shop and drive the smaller competition out of business isn’t a model I like. I see it as damaging to the local economy, the people that end up having to shop there, and the people that end up working there. Walmart is a prime example of this sort of practice. Even if it’s cheaper in the beginning, it never stays like that.
Despite the disagreements, it is nice to have a chat with someone that’s got a different perspective without the conversation turning ugly. Cheers for that.
I think we both fundinentally agree that over-dependence on cars is a problem and are likely in alignment in a number of ideologies. I come from a rural conservative background(I was cured of the conservative bit thanks to some very patient and empathetic liberal folks) and maintain a readiness mentality (not quite prepper loony, but on the same tacks). As of right now, I am very near the outskirts of a small town. I am within easy walking distance of a Walmart (10min maybe), but being able to go there even if it isn’t a good-weather daytime-hours trip while I am in good health, means I will never be anti-car.
Where we overlap, I think, is that making every other option far more accessible, safe, affordable, and convenient should absolutely be a goal. Funny you mention the parking lots. Big box stores did that back in the fifties and sixties because shoppers were more easily manipulated by “oh, this place is always busy, it must be good!”. Something I see in the very old town I live near, and have heard mentioned in conversation with city planners and civil engineers is the idea of stores having their shop-front and entrance right on the sidewalks with parking lots in the back with access by a utility road that connects before the main commercial district. Eliminating the “stroad” effect on the main streets of the shopping district, and facilitating pedestrian traffic without having to burden the town with implementing extra pedestrian-friendly pathways. We also have an ordinance that Jaywalking is not a thing and pedestrians have the right of way no matter the situation or crossing point. This leads Main Street to be a great place to walk down and pop into shops or cafes…but…I am still gonna drive down there before I park at one end and walk it. Our main highway connection road (read about streets and roads and stroads, it is really interesting), that also connects the residential zone to the commercial district, just got a facelift and an extra-wide walking path…but until those trees along side grow real big, that is a desert slog to walk down on any sunny day.
Younger more pedestrian-friendly city planners and the like have really great ideas moving forwards, but it is a slow change in a world literally paved with awful, decades old, corporate-run planning.
After rambling and having a readthrough again…I think cars will always dominate rural situations, could be almost phased out of urban situations, and will be a battle ground where the two meet. I keep reading about making cars cost more. If people had to retest every 5 years and pay $500 each time to maintain a licence, it would most assuredly cut back on cars, ESPECIALLY if those other cheap, efficient, clean, safe alternatives existed…but that still makes my “torment the poor”-o-meter twitch and I dont like it. I don’t have any real answers. I think a lot of the answers from the passionate people fighting this fight are not as realistic, or taking every lifestyle into account, as they think…but I don’t want them to fail or give up for lack of insight. Hopefully discourse can bring more disparate information together and bring about real workable solutions. I look forward to a day where I only drive my Jeep because it is a hobby and a toy, and sell my car because I never drive it any more.
To be easier on your torment the poor-o-metre, one possibility could be to charge a yearly fee for a safety inspection on a personal car, with the fee being scaled by its weight. This way, cars would be safer generally, and people driving a Smart Fortwo would only be out the time it took to get the inspection.
These sorts of inspections are already in place in several countries like the United Kingdom, Japan, and Germany. Some countries also require higher annual registration costs for heavier vehicles, with other places adding inflated street side parking fees. Think of this as sort of an amalgamation of all these things.
The higher the delta between fees for driving a compact car and a large pick up truck is, the more reason people might see in not choosing the F-150. I’m not saying everyone should be cruising around in a Chang Li, but even downsizing the truck lovers to a Chevrolet S-10 would be great. Though of course, the manufacturers would have to make smaller trucks again, which means less profit, and la de da you know how the shareholders feel about that.
Side note, I see people in the summer driving their Jeeps with the doors off. Not my cup of tea but damn if it doesn’t look cool as hell.
I learned a wild thing about trucks, because I despise pickups (other options do what they do, but better in every metric). Apparently trucks are huge so they can be in a different classification of vehicle and avoid certain fees and taxes, and those same fees and taxes make smaller foreign trucks not profitable to sell in the States (the point of the fees and taxes… lobbyists, ffs).
I am a big fan of making huge vehicles more annoying to own, and small, clean vehicles much easier and cheaper to own and operate, with exceptions like minivans for families with 3+ kids. I am so very in support of getting the single-passenger giant SUVs and non-work trucks off the road, even if it means giving up my Jeep.
There are good ideas out there that get us moving in a better direction and I think those are worth pushing.
If people are fully exposed to the real cost of car ownership they will happily choose alternatives. This means no free parking or mandatory minimums, no subsidies, tolls everywhere, and carbon taxes on fuel. Even after all of that some people will still decide that driving is their best option and that’s ok.
In a world where there are no viable alternatives, like much of the US, this ends up putting additional financial pressure on the poor and the rich can simply carry on. This ultimately just increases the cost of ownership, and forces people to pay it.
Studies also show that people will take faster more robust alternatives if they exist, regardless of price. If driving means you sit in traffic for an hour, but taking the bus means you get there in 35 minutes, people will take the bus.
The point is, the poor can still successfully use mass transit now that there’s not much traffic for buses and crosswalks.
I’d rather implement stronger options for free/cheap transportation BEFORE we increase the cost of car ownership. A lot of cities don’t have proper transit options, mine included, and if I was suddenly exposed to the “full cost” of owning a car, I’d be SOL until a bus route near enough for me to walk to gets put in place.
I think this is the essence of what you’re replying to is getting at. It’s a great idea, later, right now we need something that doesn’t kill the working class.
That’s not necessarily possible. Good public transit and bikable neighborhoods are made possible by the low land usage. Low land usage requires having fewer roads and smaller parking lots. Those, in turn, require fewer people to be driving.
The midway transitionary option is buses. But buses are only convenient if they don’t have much traffic to battle. We need fewer people driving.
There are options available. More heavy subsidation for buses comes to mind. Subsidize it enough it’s practically free, and expand their routes. Add more priority lanes for buses. That much is doable today. Then we have a bit of infrastructure so we’re not just pulling the rug out from under people. From there, slowly introduce things to discourage car driving. Gas taxes, more strict emissions requirements, more expensive registration, harder license exams, etc.
You may not have read the second paragraph. People won’t even ride free buses when they don’t arrive and are slower than walking.
Money alone does not solve the issue. You can’t engineer a faster engine for a bus that’s stuck in traffic. Even adding more buses to the route does not help.
