As someone also measured as gifted and put in gifted classes, there was an interesting discussion that I had with one of the teachers about how the views for approaching gifted education was changing.
For a lot of schools, the “gifted” students are gifts; you don’t have to spend time on their education and they may end up helping the classes they are in. So, it is ok to treat them like normal kids and they won’t become a problem.
However, studies have shown that to be really bad for the “gifted” students. You get a lot of underperforming students who don’t engage with the material as it is mentally underwhelming. Soft skills that they were supposed to learn were never developed because they never had to. You even had issues with developing social skills as the distance in standard deviations between gifted and normal children are the same as between a normal kid and a “special education” kid.
The findings were showing you had to treat the “gifted” students with the same care as those in “special education” as the common teaching techniques don’t work, issues are much more varied between children, and being able to lean on talent in some cases leads to skills not being learned because they never needed to be.
No, I was actually in a class specifically for gifted children.
However, this was over 20 years ago and back then, this was a relatively new concept in my region. That meant the class had to be padded with “regulars” and the special treatment we got, was rather limited. Looking back, it seemed like they dropped the idea almost completely after 9th grade or so.
And even today I’m pretty sure there’s no comprehensive testing going on. So a ton of smart children get labelled as having ADHD or just as delinquents if they’re from a “bad” background.
Funny thing is, Germany actually did have a three tiered school system for decades, where after elementary the children were separated by “performance”, but since this country is laughably bad at creating equal opportunities, this de facto became a class filter. Parents are academics? Off to the Gymnasium with you! Parents are poor/migrants? Well, Hauptschule will have to do. Good luck at being underemployed for life.
State-funded schools (a big majority) are tuition-free, as foreseen by the respective laws, even often on constitutional level. Segregation of students by parent wealth or income is looked down upon, to the point of being an exception to the constitutionally guaranteed freedom to have private schools (Article 7 section 4 of the German constitution, Sondierungsverbot). Of the private gymnasia, the vast majority is run by the Catholic Church on very low tuition fees (which is more easy as by Concordat, the Church receives a high percentage of the amount of money the State need not spend for a pupil in a Church-school); fees for schools who need to earn money by teaching are higher. Schools with fees generally offer scholarships.
In 2005, the German government spent €5,400 per student for those attending public gymnasium. This is less than what was spent on a student attending Hauptschule, but more than was spent on those attending Realschule.[22] Some Hauptschule and Gesamtschule students have special needs requiring extra help, so those schools cannot operate as cost-effectively as gymnasia.
I myself went to a public Gymnasium and can still remember that among my classmates we had a wide range re “parent income and status”.
Literally from:
‘single parent that barely gets by’
‘teacher parents’
attorneys / judges / cardiologist / engineers / etc.
CEO parent of an international company
I literally:
went through elementary school
got a recommendation for going to a Gymnasium at end of 4th year based on my performance
picked one out of the available Gymnasiums in my area (within what was doable by bus on a daily basis)
then went there
And even if you go to “Hauptschule”, that’s not the end of education.
One can still do what’s called “M-Zweig”, which gets you the equivalent degree of “Realschule”.
Then one can go to “FOS”, which gets you a degree close to that of Gymnasium.
It at least allows for going to a “university of applied sciences”, which is less geared towards academics and more towards industry. Still can get you your masters degree or if a doctors degree if one really wants that and partners with an “academic university” (AFAIR).
Some children simply take that other route.
Still, it comes down to ability of the child. Of course, having a non-supportive environment that doesn’t believe in achild can make things harder on it. Some children might actually be motivated by “potentially escaping that”.
But to say this education system is a “class filter” is just wrong.
Maybe I have bit too positive outlook on this, yeah.
But that article also emphasizes a lot (first half) that a child’s environment simply matters a lot. Esp. having parents that have higher education themselves and are there for the child to support it regarding learning outside of school can make a big difference.
And this isn’t just about the first couple years before elementary school (what article says re “Wortschatz”). Esp. the ongoing school period thereafter. E.g. “Does it make a difference in a child’s household if parents can speak English when trying to learn English?” - of course it does!
The point on “Brennpunktschulen” is also very environment driven.
I’m not saying that “Lehrermangel” isn’t real, or that having this system of three school paths starting from 5th grade is the best invention ever.
But one can’t put all the blame on the school system, when “what happens outside of school” has such a big impact on a child.
TBH, I don’t know much about school systems of other countries. Just reading horror stories of the US education system re student loans at times. So can’t really argue that point with you.
But I’m not sure what made you think I’m blaming the children. Not once did I make a remark that would suggest that.
So let me be clear:
Children, while they are still considered children, really can’t be blamed. As they become adolescents, then slowly, but ever increasingly more, their own viewpoints and actions will have an impact on how their education is going (esp. true if a child goes a lot further in education than their parents ever did).
Rather there’s some blame to be put on the social environment and the child’s parents.
E.g. it’s not the fault of the education system if child’s parents are divorcing while the kid is in Kindergarden and the child then has to switch schools multiple times, not because the child is problematic or because the education system is pushing the child around. No, chances are most of the blame is on the parents then.
Definitely feel the last part… Regular people really don’t realize the distance between them and some of us is the same as them and their dog. It’s cute when it’s a dog; it’s incredibly taxing when it’s a person.
As someone also measured as gifted and put in gifted classes, there was an interesting discussion that I had with one of the teachers about how the views for approaching gifted education was changing.
For a lot of schools, the “gifted” students are gifts; you don’t have to spend time on their education and they may end up helping the classes they are in. So, it is ok to treat them like normal kids and they won’t become a problem.
However, studies have shown that to be really bad for the “gifted” students. You get a lot of underperforming students who don’t engage with the material as it is mentally underwhelming. Soft skills that they were supposed to learn were never developed because they never had to. You even had issues with developing social skills as the distance in standard deviations between gifted and normal children are the same as between a normal kid and a “special education” kid.
The findings were showing you had to treat the “gifted” students with the same care as those in “special education” as the common teaching techniques don’t work, issues are much more varied between children, and being able to lean on talent in some cases leads to skills not being learned because they never needed to be.
Sounds like you were kept with the normal kids.
No, I was actually in a class specifically for gifted children.
However, this was over 20 years ago and back then, this was a relatively new concept in my region. That meant the class had to be padded with “regulars” and the special treatment we got, was rather limited. Looking back, it seemed like they dropped the idea almost completely after 9th grade or so.
And even today I’m pretty sure there’s no comprehensive testing going on. So a ton of smart children get labelled as having ADHD or just as delinquents if they’re from a “bad” background.
Funny thing is, Germany actually did have a three tiered school system for decades, where after elementary the children were separated by “performance”, but since this country is laughably bad at creating equal opportunities, this de facto became a class filter. Parents are academics? Off to the Gymnasium with you! Parents are poor/migrants? Well, Hauptschule will have to do. Good luck at being underemployed for life.
Your last paragraph seems misinformed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(Germany)
I myself went to a public Gymnasium and can still remember that among my classmates we had a wide range re “parent income and status”.
Literally from:
I literally:
And even if you go to “Hauptschule”, that’s not the end of education. One can still do what’s called “M-Zweig”, which gets you the equivalent degree of “Realschule”. Then one can go to “FOS”, which gets you a degree close to that of Gymnasium. It at least allows for going to a “university of applied sciences”, which is less geared towards academics and more towards industry. Still can get you your masters degree or if a doctors degree if one really wants that and partners with an “academic university” (AFAIR).
Some children simply take that other route. Still, it comes down to ability of the child. Of course, having a non-supportive environment that doesn’t believe in achild can make things harder on it. Some children might actually be motivated by “potentially escaping that”.
But to say this education system is a “class filter” is just wrong.
You seem to have a much too positive view of our system: https://www.das-parlament.de/inland/bildung/wie-gerecht-ist-das-deutsche-bildungssystem
Maybe I have bit too positive outlook on this, yeah.
But that article also emphasizes a lot (first half) that a child’s environment simply matters a lot. Esp. having parents that have higher education themselves and are there for the child to support it regarding learning outside of school can make a big difference. And this isn’t just about the first couple years before elementary school (what article says re “Wortschatz”). Esp. the ongoing school period thereafter. E.g. “Does it make a difference in a child’s household if parents can speak English when trying to learn English?” - of course it does!
The point on “Brennpunktschulen” is also very environment driven. I’m not saying that “Lehrermangel” isn’t real, or that having this system of three school paths starting from 5th grade is the best invention ever.
But one can’t put all the blame on the school system, when “what happens outside of school” has such a big impact on a child.
You can absolutely blame the schools, if so many other countries manage to do better.
You’re basically blaming the children.
TBH, I don’t know much about school systems of other countries. Just reading horror stories of the US education system re student loans at times. So can’t really argue that point with you.
But I’m not sure what made you think I’m blaming the children. Not once did I make a remark that would suggest that.
So let me be clear: Children, while they are still considered children, really can’t be blamed. As they become adolescents, then slowly, but ever increasingly more, their own viewpoints and actions will have an impact on how their education is going (esp. true if a child goes a lot further in education than their parents ever did).
Rather there’s some blame to be put on the social environment and the child’s parents. E.g. it’s not the fault of the education system if child’s parents are divorcing while the kid is in Kindergarden and the child then has to switch schools multiple times, not because the child is problematic or because the education system is pushing the child around. No, chances are most of the blame is on the parents then.
Definitely feel the last part… Regular people really don’t realize the distance between them and some of us is the same as them and their dog. It’s cute when it’s a dog; it’s incredibly taxing when it’s a person.