Elsewhere in this thread I talked about a couple patients I have actually treated. One was a woman in her 60’s that got mystery doses of estrogen from implanted pellets that now has to take blood thinners for the rest of her life because she got a DVT and pulmonary embolism because of the excessive estrogen. She’s also at much higher risk for uterine and breast cancer too. Another was a man in his 50’s that had to get coronary stents and start a pile of medications to try to mitigate his heart and liver damage from taking the doses of testosterone recommended by body building influencers. I actually care about HIPAA, so I won’t be giving you any more specific information about these cases.

It really isn’t the trans folks I’m worried about when it comes to HRT, but if it’s freely available to trans folks, that means it’s also freely available to cis folks that are more likely to do it wrong and suffer severe consequences.

I am concerned for the population at large, and unfortunately, safety regulations have to account for the lowest common denominator unless you think that uneducated or gullible people deserve to suffer. Prescriptions are a way to make sure that people are getting the medications they need in the appropriate doses for the correct indications. There’s enough trouble with people hurting themselves with the medications that are already OTC. I don’t think more OTCs (HRT or otherwise) are a particularly good fix for the disaster that is American healthcare.

I think you are severely underestimating how much education is actually required to fully understand how medications work and how they can interact with each other. The internet is full of quack grifters like the “Hims” and “Hers” sites that will give people unregulated compounded semaglutide (that doesn’t undergo actual health inspections) to people that are likely to be seriously harmed by it because they don’t do their due diligence of actually screening for comorbid conditions that could lead to serious health consequences.

I just got home from a shift at the hospital where two medical students, two resident physicians, and an attending physician couldn’t find the information on how to adjust dosing for a couple of medications to prevent dangerous interactions so we had to go ask the pharmacist. She responded with more questions about the patient’s clinical condition so that she could give us appropriate recommendations. If we had gotten that medication combination wrong, our patient could have easily ended up with a pulmonary embolism or a stroke.

Point being: even physicians have to phone a friend to figure out medication safety sometimes and I do not think it’s reasonable to put the responsibility of medication safety on patients who don’t have over a decade of study and training to know what the risks are.

On the other hand, when I’ve worked in emergency departments I’ve seen patients that have been severely harmed by medications that they got on their own. A perfect example was the man that thought he had a rare parasite from a continent he had never been to because Chat GPT told him so and it also told him that the treatment for that parasite is Ivermectin. He went and got the horse paste version from Tractor Supply and turned up in our emergency department with fulminant liver failure because he didn’t know how to do the dose conversion correctly (and didn’t know the safe human dosing anyways).

Your model of “total bodily autonomy” with every medication being OTC would drastically worsen the Darwinian hell caused by medical misinformation. I don’t want to see my patients harmed by dangerous medications even if I wasn’t the one that prescribed it.

deleted by creator

That “clinical experience” can usually be fulfilled by shadowing and supervised practice like medical students and medical residents have to do isn’t actually required for NPs. Also, in most places, those 4 years of clinical practice can be as an MA or CNA, not necessarily an RN. The education and certification requirements for NPs are wildly inconsistent which I think is actually more dangerous than a standardized lower level of education.

I also said that many OTC medications need to be more strictly regulated. The American capitalistic approach to marketing drugs is obscene and needs to be heavily reigned in. HRT is not a special category of medication because every substance that has a desired effect also has side effects that need to be considered. Acetaminophen (aka paracetamol or Tylenol) in other countries is regulated similar to how pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) is regulated as in needing to get it from the pharmacist in limited quantities in individual blister packs. It is absurd how poorly controlled dangerous medications are in this country, but it’s unlikely that will ever change because of the attitudes of American individualism and pharma lobbying groups.

Does my ethical autonomy count for nothing? Am I really obligated under your worldview to harm my patients by acquiescing to their demands carte blanche?

Even as a medical student, I have had patients die in my care from things I couldn’t do anything about. I had no way to save them because the medicine to fix the problem simply does not exist. As an ER tech, I have had multiple times where the physician running the code called the time of death while I was the one doing compressions on the patient. Most of those were children. I am already haunted by the patients I have lost through no malpractice, negligence, incompetence, or malice of my own. I refuse to intentionally add to my nightmares by doing something that I truly believe would harm my patient, even if it is what they are asking for.

To be clear: I am not saying this about HRT specifically because, most of the time, HRT is safe when dosed appropriately.

That being said, if I think a medication is going to be dangerous, harmful, or lethal to a patient and I prescribe it anyways, I am legally and morally liable for any harm that comes to them from that medication. I have had conversations with patients about weight loss drugs that they really want, but that would be extremely dangerous based on other comorbid conditions like heart problems or pancreas issues. If a patient asks me for something that I think is unsafe, I engage them in a discussion about why they want that medication, the risks and benefits of it, and possible alternatives that could be safer. If a patient is dead-set on getting a medication that is very likely to harm them, I’m not going to write that prescription because if the worst happened, their blood is on my hands.

It is very uncommon that physicians refuse to prescribe something that a patient is asking for specifically. The much more common situation ends up being that the physician can write the prescription, but insurance won’t pay for it. There are obviously some physicians out there that refuse to prescribe things like birth control based on their personal beliefs, but they are obligated to refer that patient to a provider that will give them the prescription.

It isn’t the cis kids I worry about. It’s the menopausal woman in the emergency department with a DVT and PE from the estrogen she got online on the advice of her chiropractor. It’s the man in his 50’s that thought testosterone would fix his lost libido and fatigue that now has to get coronary artery stents because he got his dosing recommendations from body building influencers.

It’s the real patients I have seen and treated that concern me when these hormones aren’t even that freely available. It’s not a hypothetical for me, it’s real people that have suffered real harm even if they didn’t die from it.

HRT is extremely safe when dosed appropriately. As I said in another comment, I’m less worried about trans folks getting the HRT wrong than cis people taking a bunch of extra hormones because some influencer convinced them that more estrogen or more testosterone will fix all their health problems. Making something OTC makes it available to everyone, not just the people that need it. Trans people need HRT, cis people very rarely do.

As a soon-to-be physician that has sought training in trans healthcare, I do not see my role as gatekeeper, but the role of educator includes teaching about and monitoring for the risks and complications that can come from HRT. Estrogen and Testosterone are both powerful and potentially dangerous hormones and I do not want to see my trans patients dying from strokes or heart attacks that could have been prevented with more careful dosing of their HRT.

In countries besides America, Tylenol comes in blister packs of maybe 20 total pills per package in a lower dose than the American variation. The drug and marketing regulations here are not a good example and I think a lot of medications that are currently OTC need to be much more closely regulated or have things like the inconvenient packaging and MUCH better warnings on them for patient safety.

That being said, poorly managed (or un-managed) HRT has more potential for significant harm than most OTC medications. There are many complications that can come from exogenous hormone treatment for both trans and cis patients, and the risks need to be adequately assessed and managed. Estrogen significantly increases the risk of blood clots and strokes, and Testosterone drastically increases the risk of heart attack and organ failure if not dosed appropriately.

In no way do I intend to restrict trans healthcare, but most medications on the market in America need to be much more closely regulated than they are now because of the risks of harms that can vastly outweigh the benefits, especially when not dosed or monitored accurately.

I am very glad that you were able to get your own care and didn’t have any bad outcomes. On the other hand, I’ve had cis-female patients go to naturopaths or chiropractors to get estrogen and/or testosterone pellets for peri-menopause symptoms and they had no idea what the risks were. In the emergency department, I’ve had cis-female patients on estrogen replacement therapy that was not well managed show up with DVTs. Cis-male patients on supraphysiologic testosterone are at risk for several different kinds of organ failure along with a drastically increased risk of heart attacks.

I don’t think that trans patients are terribly likely to harm themselves with DIY HRT, but having hormones available OTC is going to lead to a lot of cis people getting sick or getting killed by taking extra hormones to try to fix their problems because scammers and quacks have convinced them that hormones will magically fix all of their problems.

A huge piece of a physician’s medical training is knowing what questions to ask (as well as how and when to ask) to uncover the sneaky things that aren’t apparent on the surface. For example, as a 4th year medical student, I had a patient in the ER that came in with shortness of breath, fatigue, and chest discomfort. There were a couple hints of red flags, so I asked more questions that didn’t seem like they were related at all. Was he having unintended weight changes, night sweats, or changes to his bowel movements? The answer to all three was “yes”, but he had no idea why I was asking about that when he was there for breathing problems. I had a suspicion that he was having complications from metastatic cancer, and I was right. The resident I was working with hadn’t even thought to dig into those other niggling suspicions and was more focused on cardiac and pulmonary causes of chest pain and breathing problems.

I can almost guarantee that a nurse practitioner wouldn’t have asked those questions either. I keyed into some very subtle signs on his exam which prompted me to dig deeper, but NP’s aren’t even really trained on how to get a deeper history, let alone when to do so.

I’m going to push back on OTC HRT because of the health risks. Supraphysiologic estrogen and testosterone can both have lethal side effects, so correct dosing and monitoring for health complications are essential components of trans healthcare.

As a patient, you do have the right to refuse to be treated by anyone. You may have to wait for a physician to be available, but no one can treat you without your consent and you can always ask for a provider’s title and licensure.

The AI alleviates the process of critical thinking though. I make my own review notebooks for my boards and for clinical rotations by taking the time to figure out what’s important and what I don’t know to put those things in my notebooks. I write these out by hand on paper, so I have to be judicious about what is going to actually be important, and just the process of making those priorities helps me to have a better understanding of my own deficiencies.

Making a good study guide requires critical thinking skills, and if that gets outsourced to AI, that means the critical thinking isn’t being done by the human that needs to learn that skill.

Nope. They can (and these days often do) go straight from their nursing degree to an NP program with no real work experience.

The problem is that most people don’t double check or they check a couple things then think “good enough”, and turn off the critical thinking part of their brain. That’s how lawyers ended up submitting a case brief with fake case citations. The “citations” look real enough, but to verify it, you have to go read the source yourself.

This goes for people citing studies without reading them first. There are a lot of studies that squidge the numbers around to make things look better and you have to look for things like how they parsed the data for the results and conclusions. I’ve personally made pharma reps very uncomfortable by digging into things like how they did or did not parse complications by sex (ie one complication was parsed by sex, but the other was combined)

Part of my concern is that APPs like nurse practitioners that have no supervised practice as part of their training are going to become even more poorly educated. Their curriculum is already algorithm-based, and because of the Nursing lobby pushing for more and more independence for NP’s, they have dwindling physician oversight requirements (in some places a physician only needs to audit 10% of their notes and never actually lay eyes on the patient themselves.)

Our board exams can only cover so much, so there are little things that can slip under the radar. Like I said in another comment, one of my classmates in medical school used Chat GPT to summarize the reading and it swapped the warning signs for 2 different neurological conditions, one of which is transient and can be fixed with medications, the other is one that can be lethal if not recognized quickly.

Residency training will weed some of them out, but if they never see/recognize those zebras until they show up on the autopsy, that patient still suffered for their laziness and cavalier attitude towards their education.