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  • We don't allow accusations like this. See the civility rule. Future breaches will result in a temp ban.

  • The inherent problem with the Rosenham Experiment is that it involved sane people actively attempting to deceive doctors. That has no bearing on a sane person being incorrectly diagnosed assuming they do not attempt to appear to be insane.

    In fact, that entire experiment is more or less discounted as fraud these days:

    https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/distillations-pod/the-fraud-that-transformed-psychiatry/

    Mental health professionals, in fact, take the 'mental' part out, health professionals in general assume that people presenting a medical condition are honest brokers*, they can't be faulted for failing to detect unreliable narrators.

    With the notable exception of women and minorities. Doctors seem all too willing to discount self reporting by women and minorities, that's an entirely separate issue.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/the-dangerous-dismissal-of-womens-pain

    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/2021/06/physicians-more-likely-to-doubt-black-patients

    But to get back to your larger point of how do you define mental illness severe enough to when society needs to step in and take over:

    It should be super simple. When your mental illness reaches a point where it's having a systemic impact on others.

    The lady sleeping on the freeway is actively posing a danger to other people. If some motorist hits her, she's not the only person who is going to be critically injured. She needs to be removed and treated.

    Or, take animal hoarders for example, they are actively posing a danger to the innocent animals they have collected.

    It's the whole "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." Someone quietly going insane, not bothering anyone and refusing treatment is far different than, say, someone wandering into traffic waving a sword around.

    Man, I WISH I was kidding about that last one.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2015/05/sword-wielding_bipolar_man_in.html

    When your problem becomes someone elses problem, it becomes all of ours problem. That's when someone steps in. I'd much rather have it be a psych ward than the cops.

  • I'm not arrogant enough to think we are the only intelligent life out there, but at the same time, Earth is kind of at the ass end of space, so I also can't believe that any species capable of getting all the way out here would find anything remotely interesting here.

  • All true, and incentive to fix what's wrong with the system, but we can't fix it in it's current state, it needs billions in investment to reverse the damage caused by Reagan that turned people loose in the streets in the first place.

    Locally, in my town? I think a billion would cover it.

    We need a no questions asked hospital for medical care and a no questions asked mental health/addiction clinic. Get everyone the treatment they need. If they need permanent care, provide permanent care.

    If folks are physically and mentally fit (or when they become physically and mentally fit), they need an agency for job training and placement and housing assistance. Provide email, address and phone service, as well as laundry assistance. Job and interview training.

    There also need to be specialists on the job and housing sides too who deal with people with criminal records.

    Speaking of, people with open warrants or actively committing crimes need to go through the criminal justice system.

  • That's the whole point, if the insane had the capacity to choose for themselves, they wouldn't be insane. 😉

    I argue that if personal autonomy leads to being homeless on the side of the freeway and, ultimately a miserable existence and death, society has an obligation to step in.

    At some point, someone needs to recognize that that level of autonomy is going to cause a preventable death.

  • They percieve the system as being horrible, but again, that's a function of their mental illness.

    The system does have problems, but there's no refuting the fact that whatever problems the system has, it's infinitely better than an amputee with an infected leg sitting in the dirt with no shelter.

  • That's an argument to fix the system, which I 110% agree with. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get people the help they need.

  • Yup!

  • I think the difference in our opinions are less than you think it is, you argue from a point of personal autonomy, and I get that, my argument is they have already lost their autonomy due to mental illness.

    So if they have no autonomy already, society needs to error on the side of making sure they get appropriate care, especially when the alternative is utter destitution and death.

  • Surely nothing bad will come from this.

    "Honey? Did you remember to feed the computer today?"

  • Severely mentally ill people don't want to choose help, that's a function of being severely mentally ill. Leaving the decision making to people fundamentally incapable of making a decision actively harms them.

  • That's still better than letting an amputee sit in the dirt, feet away from freeway traffic, unprotected in 100° heat.

    At some point there needs to be a competency hearing and the person cared for even if they can't or won't ask for it. ESPECIALLY if they can't or won't ask for it.

    The alternative is going "Welp, too bad they died, nothing we could do."

  • Leaving someone to die at the side of the road is not humanitarian.

  • Shockingly easy to reach out for help, but those most in need of it are incapable or unwilling to do so, so what then?

    See my other post above.

  • Well, what do you do for people like this?

    60 years old, homeless for 10 years, living unsheltered on the side of a major freeway, leg infected to such a degree she had to have a foot amputated, leg then re-infected, other people keep stealing her wheelchair, but she refuses services, sitting in the dirt, feet away from 55mph (88.5kph) traffic, in 101° (38°C) heat.

    https://katu.com/news/homeless-crisis/woman-struggling-to-survive-along-i-5-in-portland-a-firsthand-look-at-finding-help-with-homelessness

    "Vicky is known to our outreach workers, as well as teams who work with the city, all of whom have been attempting to provide services or engage for several weeks. At times, she has informed those teams that she has not been interested in care. But they continue to check in and try to work with her."

    Universal Health Care means Universal Mental Health Care too, and until we can get people off the street and into care for their own well being, we will continue to see situations like this.

    At what point do you tell someone "you're incapable of caring for yourself, we'll do it for you."?

  • Brazilian Lemonade

    Maybe too sweet for what you're looking for, but you can adjust the sugar and limes to taste:

    https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/54083/brazilian-lemonade/

    2 limes3 cups water (710ml)½ cup sugar (100g)3 tablespoons sweetened condensed milk (45ml)ice cubes

    Directions

    Wash limes thoroughly. Cut off the ends and slice into eight wedges.

    Place limes in a blender with water, sugar, sweetened condensed milk, and ice; pulse 5 times, or until smooth. Strain through a fine mesh strainer to remove rinds. Serve over ice.

  • So many apocryphal stories are just the best...

    At a dinner party, someone accused Winston Churchill of being drunk.

    "That may be, madam, but you're ugly, and I'll be sober in the morning."

    Likely never happened.

    But the one that breaks my heart is that there is no evidence Carthage was salted after being destroyed.

  • News @lemmy.world

    Portland Metro Area Had Largest Loss of Employment Among U.S. Cities Over Past Year

    www.wweek.com /news/2024/05/02/portland-metro-area-had-largest-loss-of-employment-among-us-cities-over-past-year/
  • News @lemmy.world

    15 Portland police cars badly burned Thursday morning; arson suspected

    www.oregonlive.com /crime/2024/05/15-portland-police-cars-set-ablaze-thursday-morning-arson-suspected.html
  • Cooking @lemmy.world

    Dinner tonight: Backyard baked beans!

  • World News @lemmy.world

    One of the world’s highest cities (Bogotá) starts rationing water as reservoirs fall to critical levels | CNN

    www.cnn.com /2024/04/11/climate/bogota-water-rationing-drought-climate-intl/index.html
  • Mildly Infuriating @lemmy.world

    So sick of these fake, AI generated clickbait car ads...

  • World News @lemmy.world

    On "world" vs. "worldnews":

  • World News @lemmy.world

    Dutch nightclub hostage drama ends peacefully with arrest of suspect

    www.reuters.com /world/europe/hostage-situation-eastern-dutch-town-ede-news-agency-anp-2024-03-30/
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Stellantis uses ‘mandatory remote work day’ to cut 400 white-collar jobs

    fortune.com /2024/03/24/stellantis-layoffs-mandatory-remote-work-day/
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Unilever to cut 7,500 jobs and spin off its ice cream business, which includes Ben & Jerry's

    apnews.com /article/unilever-job-cuts-ice-cream-business-e43ecfd917e7102d86f5f0978013426c
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Target doubles bonuses for salaried employees as profits surge

    www.nbcnews.com /business/business-news/target-doubles-bonuses-salaried-employees-profits-surge-rcna144543
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Airbus confirms interest in parts of Spirit Aerosystems

    www.bbc.com /news/uk-northern-ireland-68651855
  • Cooking @lemmy.world

    Goan Pork Vindaloo

  • Business @lemmy.world

    Fabrics retailer Joann files for bankruptcy | CNN Business

    www.cnn.com /2024/03/18/business/joann-fabric-bankruptcy/index.html
  • News @lemmy.world

    8-hour time-restricted eating linked to a 91% higher risk of cardiovascular death

    newsroom.heart.org /news/8-hour-time-restricted-eating-linked-to-a-91-higher-risk-of-cardiovascular-death
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Bahrain takes full control of supercar brand McLaren

    www.bbc.com /news/business-68639320
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Planet Fitness stock tumbles as boycott calls grow

    www.newsweek.com /planet-fitness-boycott-stocks-market-cap-social-media-1881788
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Doing business in China is growing tougher, more uncertain, European business group says

    apnews.com /article/china-eu-europe-business-investment-822932ddbf6dad9ff00317e589a07bd1
  • Business @lemmy.world

    State Farm discontinuing 72,000 home policies in California in latest blow to state insurance market

    www.yahoo.com /news/state-farm-discontinuing-72-000-023248819.html
  • Business @lemmy.world

    Stellantis is recalling 285,000 sedans because side curtain airbag inflators could break open | CNN Business

    www.cnn.com /2024/03/22/business/stellantis-recalling-285000-sedans-side-airbags/index.html
  • Business @lemmy.world

    There is a lot of empty office space on 11th Ave. WeWork fizzled. CENTRL Office is moving in.

    www.capitolhillseattle.com /2024/03/there-is-a-lot-of-empty-office-space-on-11th-ave-wework-fizzled-cntrl-office-is-moving-in/