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MarxMadness

@ MarxMadness @lemmygrad.ml

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Comments
353
Joined
3 yr. ago

  • I suck at converting liberals

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  • We spent an hour and a half on a discussion about it.

    There's some line from Mao about how you can't expect to change people's political beliefs -- which they formed through a lifetime of experience -- in a short conversation or lecture. Persuading people (even limiting this to those who can be perduaded) to radically reshape the way they see the world takes time and patience.

  • Here it is, our big unifying moment.

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  • ...you think China is going to invade Europe?

  • Ah yes the "enlightened" democracies

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  • Yes, some of those "national liberation fighters" were absolute shitbag nazi scum, but not all

    If you are fighting against the Allies alongside "shitbag Nazi scum," you are a Nazi sympathizer.

    The vast majority of the world sees this clearly.

  • Have some civility.

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  • The gleeful people are gleeful because the man is responsible for a genocide, and a painful death is the only measure of justice he'll get. "Parasocial" is a term for obsessively following twitch streamers, not seeking any sort of accountability for the most powerful person in the world.

    Plenty of people are also rightfully upset at further proof that Democratic leadership lied to them, and lied to them in a way that threw a layup election to Republicans.

  • Have some civility.

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  • you had one choice that wasn’t actively also trying to destroy your own country

    If both parties are doing a genocide right now, how can you argue this is a bad thing?

    From a global perspective, the U.S. empire can't end soon enough. It'll even be good for the U.S. if we manage to take all that money reserved for worldwide slaughter and build houses and pay for education with it. Unfortunately, none of that appears likely to happen unless the empire crashes and burns first. Whether we can make something better out of that is another question.

  • Have some civility.

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  • They just wanted to look good for their internet points.

    A lot of the people who didn't vote for Kamala over Palestine have gone to protests, and many of those people have been arrested or worse. That's not even getting to the Palestinian Americans who have had family members killed by U.S. bombs.

    Your vile ass is saying it's all internet shit to them while you vote for the people dropping those bombs.

  • Have some civility.

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  • She did say she would break from Biden in one key area

    She'd have a Republican in her cabinet!

  • Have some civility.

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  • Less than a year ago he was the Democratic nominee for president. The fact that he was obviously unfit for the job is an indictment of all the Democrats who lied about his health for years.

    This is very much relevant to the future of the Democratic Party, not a "gosh who cares"

  • Ah yes the "enlightened" democracies

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  • Ah yes the "enlightened" democracies

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  • The accusation wasn't human rights abuses, the accusation was genocide.

    The propaganda trick here is to throw out a henious story, completely fail to back it up with evidence, then gradually retreat to a far less damning accusation that's essentially impossible to disprove. The smear sticks with most people and you then see how much of the lie you can get away with depending on the crowd.

  • Ah yes the "enlightened" democracies

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  • Russia wrote it for a reason. Think for a few seconds on why that might be.

    Because NATO put a bunch of Nazis in its command structure and the U.S. has backed various fascists countless times in the last 80 years, so it would put the western alliance in an embarrassing spot.

    That's like half of politics: trying to embarass your opponents into backing off various positions.

  • A German leftist MP called out during chancellor’s speech “it’s a genocide”.

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  • That's a pretty thin criticism.

  • Former Ukrainian politician shot dead outside Madrid school

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  • "Pro-Russian" here means "wanted Ukraine to remain on good terms with its superpower neighbor instead of becoming a hostile western satellite."

  • Multiple Western Press Outlets Have Suddenly Pivoted Hard Against Israel

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  • Every politician who supported this should face a Nuremberg-style tribunal.

  • Multiple Western Press Outlets Have Suddenly Pivoted Hard Against Israel

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  • Have to apply that thinking to Democrats, too. They were backing Israel unconditionally from the jump, and were so married to that support that it probably cost them the election.

  • MAGA family member (we'll call them Alex) broke down and cried because they are scared that "the criminal illegal aliens are coming to get them!"

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  • you are literally making the case that for large swathes of the country that they cannot be peruaded with current material conditions and strategies

    ...I said that's true of maybe a quarter or third of the country, yes. You think it's far more.

    It's weird to lump material conditions and strategy together here. Material conditions are largely out of our control, while strategy is very much in our control. I'm saying parts of the strategy (such as telling ourselves that most of the country is basically unreachable) should change.

    You have not really answered any of the questions I have posited meaningfully

    You're firing off a dozen or more questions every post and treating this as some sort of socratic "hide the ball" exercise. I'm trying to have a conversation.

  • MAGA family member (we'll call them Alex) broke down and cried because they are scared that "the criminal illegal aliens are coming to get them!"

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  • If it is due to a political horizon stunted for a lifetime then how come you escaped it?

    A stunted political horizon is a great way to phrase it. A lot of people peek over that horizon at some point in their lives, but turn back pretty soon because:

    • There are no significant organized politics to the left of the Democratic Party in the U.S.
    • There is no short-term theory of change in the U.S. left that is as credible (and safe) as "vote for someone who will pass a law to address this"
    • Trying to change either of the above is a herculean task that will probably endanger (at minimum) your job

    They then convince themselves that anything left of Chuck Shumer is pie-in-the-sky stuff that isn't really serious, that Democrats do some actually good things, that some good things are better than none, that the bad things Democrats do will happen anyway, etc. Notably, a lot of people tell themselves this even if their material conditions aren't good and are downwardly mobile. This is likely because even if you reject those justifications, you're still stuck with the bullet points above, which are a pretty raw deal.

    What got me to reject these justifications was a combination of Democrats largely abandoning any attempts to address major issues and Bernie offering a very credible peek over that horizon you mentioned. It's replicable at scale because the "Democrats getting even worse" part isn't going anywhere, and by all estimations is a fairly mainstream opinion.

  • Happy Birthday, Karl Marx!

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  • a general safety net for all

    Why shouldn't there be a safety net for all?

  • MAGA family member (we'll call them Alex) broke down and cried because they are scared that "the criminal illegal aliens are coming to get them!"

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  • I think we're losing track of what the other person is talking about.

    I agree that a large minority of the U.S. population, maybe a quarter or a third, is unreachable in the short term (i.e., anything short of a government program offering them major direct benefits). They're probably unreachable for a while even after that due to reactionary attitudes and all the cultural forces that reinforce those.

    I think basically the remainder of the population (or certainly the remainder that would ever be politically engaged) can be brought around with promises of major direct benefits (e.g., Medicare for All). I don't think any sorts of benefits within the ability of leftist orgs to actually deliver right now -- benefits more on the scale of the BPP's free breakfast program, or an abortion access fund -- are enough to move the needle right now.

    Because we can't offer material benefits on the scale of what would really motivate people, and because mere promises of such benefits are of questionable value, I think we do have to do some politics and try to convince people that our program is better than whatever else is on offer. Saying we can do nothing until conditions change is defeatist, as is saying that it's simply impossible to convince people to change their politics without a materialist carrot and/or stick.

    What I'm arguing against is the the maximalist version of "they are choosing to buy in to the system because if they wanted they could just read about the problems I've read about." They see the same looming problems we see, they just justify them away in ways we don't. We don't have to convince them (for example) that climate change is a dire problem, we have to dispel the justification that (for example) their favorite neoliberal approach to the problem is the most we could possibly do. It's not wilful ignorance, it's a political horizon that's been stunted by a lifetime of basically no significant political actors suggesting anything outside of the neoliberal consensus.