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847
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2 yr. ago

  • Yes, it’s a protest. Just like with protests involving pedestrians, the streets get filled and people “ignore the rules”.

    Then why did you bring up the Pride parade? You said: "I’ve seen cars in large groups going through red lights and driving the wrong way during similar events. In fact, just this past weekend, I saw numerous cars going through red lights at a local Pride Parade." That is a permitted event. Driving the wrong way can be permitted by a, ya know, permit. Bringing this up then saying "of course their breaking the rules" only proves my point. Bikes are doing this, cars do not unless it is done legally with a permit. And you saying "ya I know" means you knew that but presented it anyway. That's extremely dishonest.

    If you set up automated speed cameras, red light cameras, DUI checkpoints, and school zone blitzes, suddenly you realize that it’s more than just a few drivers behaving badly. And that’s during normal traffic, not during a protest.

    And I'm sure you'd find the same with biking. Many bikers break laws about where to cross or how to handle intersections and are just ignored all the time.

    It gets a large number of cyclists together, making riding safer than as individuals. It also gets people who were too afraid to cycle around traffic a safe space to ride.

    Do these people not know about side streets or bike paths or anything else? There are places to bike outside of traffic. If anything this is making it worse because you're not just driving around traffic, you're driving into it and trying to control it. This is a weak reason to but people in danger.

    The visual of a large group brings attention to the needs of cyclists. “Nobody rides a bike” NIMBYs take note when these events happen.

    So the only way to show people that bikers exist is by massively disrupting traffic and causing safety issues? Yah, it brings attention to them, but not the good kind.

    It puts pressures on municipal governments to take notice of the demand for safer cycling infrastructure. Some would argue that Critical Mass events are what sped up the development of cycling infrastructure around the world.

    Or it shows the government that bikers don't listen to traffic laws and do whatever they want. This doesn't make the government do anything except maybe arrest some bikers for breaking the law.

    See, this has been going on for 35 years and the only thing you can point at is maybe it might have possible sped up some cycling infrastructure. Maybe. Yah, that's not a lot of progress for 35 years of this nonsense. There are much more effective ways.

    As with other protests, this is normal. And those traffic rules… are only there because cars make public spaces unsafe. People don’t need traffic rules.

    This is just wild.... People need traffic rules. Have you ever been in a large crowded city? Do you know all the foot TRAFFIC rules? There is literally a section of code on just this. And yes, cars exist, but what do you propose to avoid needing these rules, have no cars at all? That's absurd. Look at rural areas and tell me how that works.

    On the flip side, would you prefer that every single cyclist in that group STOP at every single red light and stop sign? I’m a massive fan of that type of malicious compliance, so I’d be OK with that, too.

    No, I would prefer they don't disrupt an entire city for some performance that has gone on for 35 years with nothing to show for it. It's just an excuse to protest and "stick it to the drivers."

    When I see protests, even when I don’t know the motivations or goals, I still respect and value the right to protest.

    Ok, now imagine you are late to pick up a family member from the hospital, or you're going to miss an interview, or a million other things. With a little empathy, you can quickly realize how this would cause issues for people, all for what? I can respect the goals, but I don't respect the way they have chosen to reach those goals.

    And if someone “hates cyclists” because of a protest like Critical Mass, they probably hate black people, gays, Palestinians, workers, the disabled, unions, First Nations, environmentalists, animal rights, and other groups of people who deserve to be heard and seen through public protests.

    Jesus, you just went nuclear there huh? If someone hates cyclists for doing something like this they must be a bigot and racist? Tell me more about how you're willing to empathize with the other side to reach a conclusion, FFS. You've decided that drivers are the enemy and so now they suddenly don't matter at all. You can just assume they're racist, sexist, anti-worker, hate animals, etc all from not liking bikers from this protest. Wow.

    Maybe stop being so emotional and think for a moment. You can be pro-animal rights and think that what an animal rights group does is wrong. Are you really incapable of understanding that basic concept? Or can I just do anything under the banner of "cyclists' rights" and call you a racist if you disagree with my actions?

    Come on, what is this nonsense?

  • Just gunna gloss over everything I said huh, ignoring how this convo started, sure. The irony is you only prove my point that you want to just look at someone in the past to blame instead of holding the current admin accountable for actions they've taken. You're simping for the current president who's best friends with the richest guy on earth, acting like he's helpless.

    I mean if you want to ignore nuance and any role Trump had to play in it sure, it's all Biden's fault. I guess he was just so helpless. He didn't want to mass deport people or deploy the military, Biden made him. He didn't want DOGE to create massive debt and disrupt essential services, Biden made him. I sure hope at some point in his 4 years he's able to take control of the country from Biden. For being such a strong, big, tough guy he sure seems like some old ex president can easily undermine everything he wants to do while Trump has his entire party behind him, backed by the richest man in the world lol. What a victim, there's nothing he can do! Won't someone please think of poor Trump!

    Trump's actions caused these riots. Not Biden. Trump deployed the military there. Not Biden. Are you having a stroke? Were you asleep for the last 6 months? I mean all this info is out there.... Or is this one of those things like when the economy is doing good it's Trump's economy, but when it's bad it's Biden's economy. That way you don't have to take any responsibility and still get the credit.

    However, let me explain why you make no sense and clearly have a loose grasp of basic logic. Based on your logic everything bad that happened during Biden's term was the same right? It's not Bidens fault, it's Trumps. You don't think that the idea of blaming the president directly before Biden for creating the conditions for Biden is insane, right? So anything Trump is dealing with now is actually his own fault because he set up Biden that way. Either way it all comes back to Trump. I mean, unless you follow this BS logic, then no one ever needs to take responsibility for their actions, just blame the last guy! See how broken your cult logic is?

    Acting like Trump has no fault for the choices, actions, and words he chooses is pathetic. You sound like a MAGA cultist through and through my guy. Baaaa louder, maybe you'll drown out reality fully one day and finally find all the scapegoats you need to feel secure in your world view.

    TL;DR - Apply your "president directly before X" logic to Biden too instead of just your cult leader, and you'll maybe realize how flawed it is.

  • Let’s ignore the specific actions that have clear and direct lines leading to what’s happening right now and attack the concept of causality itself with vapid smarmy internet trolling.

    You mean like the very comment I first responded to?

    don’t worry guys, the libs will vote for another geriatric. this will all be over in about 3 and a half years.

    You seem lost lol.

    But sure, you can be overly self-serious and pull all the threads you want. I'm sure if I pulled the threads, I could find a way to blame the Founding Fathers for a lot of this, too. At some point, you need to stop looking at the past and blaming people like it does anything and instead look to the future and the changes you can make.

    But then you couldn't complain online with cringe name calling like "deporter in chief" instead of talking about the topic like a big boy.

  • You're right. I was trying to talk about this specific incident originally and the other commenter kept trying to pivot or change the topic. I was talking about this behavior that is so far outside the norm. The person who replied to me tried to act like cars do this too, but then started talking about all the other things cars do.

    But to be clear, I bike very often. And while doing so I do see plenty of bikers break the laws and act unsafe in ways that can cause accidents. Do I see bad bikers as often as I see bad drivers? Hell no. But they do exist, and in this community the stance is often all drivers are evil no matter what and bikers are always right. We can see this with the justification of this protest. It doesn't help us get where we want to be. That's my point.

  • I cited Critical Mass and documentation about it in my response a lot. I think you might have a lot to learn about the movement based on your reply.

    In that context, YES, I’ve seen cars in large groups going through red lights and driving the wrong way during similar events. In fact, just this past weekend, I saw numerous cars going through red lights at a local Pride Parade 😘

    At a parade? One that has permits and works with the city? Yah... lol. Looking into criticall mass is says "These events are spontaneous and unpermitted." Do you know the difference between a permitted event and one that's not? Traffic can be re routed, cops can be places to manage traffic. This is not that. On CM it says "The routes of some rides are decided spontaneously by whoever is currently at the front of the ride." That means anyone can do whatever, causing massive issues with traffic and safety. What a false equivalency.

    Looking further into it, they give the reason: The disorganized nature of the event allows it to largely escape clampdown by authorities who may view the rides as forms of parades or organized protest.

    So they know it's dangerous and doesn't have the permits needed to make it safe, which is why parades and such need them, but they see that as a pro. They basically take to the streets to break the law en masse and inconvenience everyone, including emergency services and they think this will make more people want to support bikers?

    If you take a survey of stop signs, you’ll find that the majority of motorists do NOT stop at those signs. Hundreds of cars per intersection per day.

    This is either being dishonest or not understanding what I said. I'm not talking about an aggregate across the country, I'm talking about dozens doing it at once in such a way that it creates a wall that can cause an accident.

    Cops will only “do something” if they can catch someone.

    Lol, so cops should just mail tickets to people randomly? You have to catch someone committing a crime to charge them with it. That's how the law works....

    I see plenty of bikers breaking traffic laws too, every week when I ride. None of them get tickets either. Doing the things they do like going across a cross walk when they don't have the right away, could cause an accident. But you conveniently ignore that and the laws they break.

    I think you’d be surprised to learn about the history (and purpose) of Critical Mass, because it’s not “for no reason”. It’s quite literally a form of direct action to promote cycling safety and activism.

    Not surprised. You can do something for a long time for no reason. CM started in the 1990s. If it's not pointless, please show me the changes it has pushed or championed. I would love to know all the good work that came from CM aside from performative protesting.

    And the fact that they are riding in a large group makes them safer.

    Yah, so they can safely ignore all traffic rules and literally break laws to put on this show. Laws meant to keep people safe. You realize that right?

    Also they are literally breaking off to try to control traffic.

    From CM: In the Critical Mass practice of "corking", a rider breaks away from the group to block the side streets of an intersection as the mass crosses. This prevents traffic travelling through the intersection on a green signal and allows the riders to ride through red lights. This both contains cross-traffic while the mass passes and protects the mass from splitting or from drivers who might attempt to pass through the mass.

    They are not only unsafely trying to control traffic, they are causing mass congestion, again for no reason but some parade of bikers they decided to do without proper permits. This is such a "look at me, I'm the main character" movement.

    These events happen all around the world, and are widely celebrated as powerful social movements.

    Powerful? Sure, but powerful isn't always positive. I mean take a step back and look at this from a normal persons point of view, someone who is not an avid cyclist. This doesn't make me think they need more safety or protection; this makes me think they are reckless and a nuisance. This does nothing but make drivers hate bikers more, this doesn't change minds, at all.

  • I mean, why stop at 8 years ago? Can we work Truman into being responsible for this, too?

  • I'm just surprised you're not blaming Obama.

  • As a Jewish man I don't regret voting for Hitler I just think this whole Holocaust movement can be harmful.

  • I’ve witnessed cars driving in the wrong lanes (headed towards me) as they recklessly pass drivers.

    Cool, as they pass drivers. Did you see them drive en masse the wrong way through red lights? Come on, you know you haven't. You know how dangerous it is. Even if it were people walking, it would be dangerous; this isn't safe. This is so dishonest.

    Are there bad drivers, yes. But no where, in any city, are drivers doing what these bikers did. Taking up the entire road to drive the wrong way as dozens of them go through red lights.

    If you think these are rare occurrences, you likely don’t live anywhere near cars. This shit happens all the time, everywhere.

    No, no it doesn't. And this is why bikers are often ridiculed by people. I want safer roads, but I don't claim that cars drive both ways on the road and through red lights by the dozens.

    This shit happens all the time everywhere? Really. Everywhere, cars are just all going the same direction, ignoring every traffic law en masse with no cops doing anything? This is so dishonest, again. There are so many good points and ways to fight for more biker safety, creating false narratives isn't one of them.

    I’ve witnessed a teen getting hit by a car while she used a crosswalk in front of her school.

    How is this relevant to the point at all? This feels more like ranting that discussing the topic on hand. How these bikers are breaking traffic laws in ways cars do not, and in doing so are putting themselves and others in danger for 0 gain. This feels like an "own the libs" thing for bikers where making drivers get upset is the only point. Which a lot of people seem excited about in this thread, further proving that point.

    And I won’t even bring up aggressive drivers who are hostile towards cyclists and use their cars as weapons.

    Good because it's not relevant. I'm saying cars don't drive like these bikers do. They are acting extremely unsafe for no reason. This doesn't help gain any support or change anyone mind. If anything it makes people hate us bikers more.

    I’ve witnessed a teen getting hit by a car while she used a crosswalk in front of her school.

  • A poor one that makes a ton of assumptions about my character and what I would do during Nazi Germany all because I said that this isn't an effective way to gain supporters.... Really?

  • was that so hard?

    No, it's not hard to spoon feed someone information but I didn't think I had to. Fuck, everyone is just the give it to me now, I don't want to have to look into anything. People just take photos at face value and make judgment calls without even the most topical vetting. God this is depressing.

    close; it proves it DID happen, which necesarily implies it DOES happen. You are right to object that a single genuine datapoint (or as you like to spin it, "anecdote") cannot say anything about frequency, but I really have to steelman what you are saying to get there.

    Close, it proves it did happen, which only proves it did happen once, that's it. It does not, in any way at all, ever, by any form of logic mean it still DOES happen. You can infer that, but that is not what it proves, at all.

    A single data point by itself can easily be classified as an anomaly, meaning not normal. Without context you can't determine if it's the rule or the exception, only that it happened once. It could be a 1 trillion to 1 chance and it just happened to be that picture. We have no idea, it means nothing. Trying to act like it does is nothing short of using an unreliable data point (anecdote) to push a narrative.

  • It's wild that you can claim to know exactly what I would do. A smart man would know better than to make such strong assumptions about someone's character.

    Your logic doesn't hold up because this isn't a struggle for justice. This is people driving head on into traffic through a red light. What are they accomplishing with this, what justice are they championing? Being able to ignore all traffic laws and put themselves in danger by doing so?

    By your warped world view I can do anything I want and say it's for a cause, and if you disagree you only want unjust peace. This is a blanket dumb stance you can take to literally justify anything. You can say ICE deporting everyone is right, and anyone saying it isn't only wants the unjust peace of illegals being here. No nuance. That's a dumb ass stance but your logic supports it.

    This is paper thin logic hanging onto a concept you don't fully understand.

  • And why were the cars blocking the road? Just think for 2 seconds lol. Protesters not moving, means cars can't move. Because despite what people here believe, normal people don't just drive through people.

    The irony is you quoted the answer:

    trapped on Waterloo Bridge on Wednesday morning due to congestion caused by Just Stop Oil

    Congestion doesn't happen if they move out of the way of traffic. What do you think, everyone was just stopping to wave at them?

    But lemme get a few more, just to make it clear.

    1. Seattle, Washington – November 2022

    During a protest on northbound I-5 in downtown Seattle, an ambulance transporting a critically ill 37-year-old man was delayed due to protesters blocking the highway. Medics reported being stuck in a standstill for about a mile. A Washington State Patrol trooper assisted in creating a lane for the ambulance to reach the hospital. The incident resulted in a 19-minute delay in reaching Harborview Medical Center.

    Source: KOMO News https://komonews.com/news/local/downtown-protest-on-i-5-blocks-ambulance-carrying-patient-in-critical-condition-seattle-downtown-washington-state-patrol-harborview


    1. St. Petersburg, Florida – July 2020

    Protesters blocked an ambulance outside the St. Petersburg Police Headquarters. The ambulance, which was not on an emergency call, had to reroute due to the demonstration. Police released video footage showing the incident.

    Source: EMS1 https://www.ems1.com/protests/articles/video-controversy-stirred-after-protesters-block-fla-ambulance-ERIDfzTYNPzkC3U2


    1. London, UK – October 2022

    Just Stop Oil protesters blocked emergency vehicles during a demonstration in west London. Videos showed both a fire engine and an ambulance with blue lights unable to get through traffic. The Metropolitan Police arrested 28 protesters for “wilful obstruction of the highway.”

    Source: The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/just-stop-oil-block-ambulance-b2200208.html


    1. New Haven, Connecticut – 2015

    Approximately 100–200 protesters blocked a highway, delaying an ambulance carrying a critically ill patient. Due to the delay, EMTs had to perform an emergency medical procedure in the ambulance instead of at the hospital.

    Source: FOX61 https://www.fox61.com/article/news/local/outreach/awareness-months/hundreds-of-protestors-in-new-haven-block-ambulance-carrying-critically-ill-patient-1-arrested/520-cde15049-3446-4039-814a-7505edc43498

  • The irony

  • They feel like cars are coming from both sides of the road through red lights?

    Where do you bike?

  • Oh look, more brain rot.

    I can find images of people not moving. That would go against the argument. My point is, cherry picking one or two instances of something proves only that it can happen. Not that it does.

    I mean I Googled "protesters blocking emergency vehicles" and got tons of results. So what we a exactly does that picture prove? It happened once? Cool.

    Very first result, incase you need it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/just-stop-oil-waterloo-bridge-ambulance-b2443700.html

  • This guy has a picture of it happening once, in another country, with people stationary on foot, it has to be true. Unless there is a picture floating around out there of people not moving.... That would blow this whole thing up.

    God, anecdotal evidence is such brain rot.