I’m not well read in Marxism so I’m probably not qualified to answer this, but the recurring issue with Communism seems to be the same as capitalism, in that it requires people to not be assholes in order to properly function.
The recurring issue with Communism in practice is that it requires true equality amongst its citizens and there’s always some asshole or group of assholes who want power and dominion over others, so it seems to repeatedly fall into a practical dictatorship.
Capitalism at its best requires businesses to find and deploy the most effective and efficient means of product delivery in order to compete with each other, which means that the consumer will always have the best product at the best price allowed by the market. The problem is that greedy assholes either conglomerate competing companies into monopolies, or otherwise collude with one another to maximize their profit margins.
Why does Communism require “true equality amongst its citizens?” What does that even mean, in practical terms? How would a group of people take advantage of this to form a “practical dictatorship?”
Capitalism does not deploy the most efficient means of product delivery, but the most profitable. It means weaker but more profitable products are pushed, and rampant consumerism of useless trinkets is pushed for profit. Collusion and monopoly are not why Capitalism cannot work, those are merely symptoms of a broader exploitative system that naturally decays due to issues like the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall.
What of Marx have you read? Or any leftist theorist? I can make some suggestions for reading material if you wish.
Why does Communism require “true equality amongst its citizens?” What does that even mean, in practical terms?
Do you imagine a communist system that has social classes?
How would a group of people take advantage of this to form a “practical dictatorship?”
Castro, Zedong, Putin
Capitalism does not deploy the most efficient means of product delivery, but the most profitable…
You’re arguing Communism on a philosophical level against capitalism on a practical level.
What of Marx have you read? Or any leftist theorist?
As I said, I’m not well read and unprepared for the higher level argument you are seeking here.
I can make some suggestions for reading material if you wish.
I appreciate your desire to educate, but I’m too busy being exploited by the current system to dive further into social philosophy. When you guys are ready to rise up I’ll be there, but I won’t be a part of the debate on which system we should implement going forward.
Do you imagine a communist system that has classes of people?
If you are referring to the Marxian term, ie proletarians, bourgeois, etc. Of course not. Do you instead mean people must be paid equally, and there can be no management? Also of course not, Communism isn’t a bunch of horizontal organization and equal pay.
Castro, Zedong, Putin
Putin is a Capitalist, so I am unsure of what you mean by including him here.
As for Mao and Castro, Mao lost power within the CPC over time and Castro retained power democratically, neither of which maintain your points. This appears to just be vibes.
You’re arguing Communism on a philosophical level and capitalism on a practical level.
What on Earth does that mean? I am advocating for Communism on both practical and philosophical grounds, this is just gibberish.
As I said, I’m not well read and unprepared for the higher level argument you are seeking here.
I am trying to get to a base level of understanding so we can have a conversation. I wouldn’t even call it an argument, I am just trying to get you to understand your own preconceptions.
I appreciate your desire to educate, but I’m too busy being exploited by the current system to dive further into social philosophy. When you guys are ready to rise up I’ll be there, but I won’t be a part of the debate on which system we should implement going forward.
Revolution doesn’t happen just because people vibe it into existence, it’s a consequence of deteriorating Material Conditions. If you don’t have time to read Marx, why do you have time to discuss Marxism online with strangers? This entire convo would have been better spent comprehending the bigger picture of Marxism.
From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs. - Marx in 1875.
Its not about equality, it’s about fair distribution of goods and services produced by the society. As in, it is fair that national leaders get to fly planes to travel abroad frequently,for example.
The recurring issue with communism is that capitalist powers keep on trying to corrupt, infiltrate and sabotage popular governments.
While there’s incentive from outsider agents to control the resources in a piece of land, and the population in that area, there’s risk that some people within that population will betray their people for individual gain.
There’s no passive corruption without active corruption. Active corruption happens for individual gain in detriment of other people. Active corruption is the role of money players, the capitalists.
The recurring issue with communism is that capitalist powers keep on trying to corrupt, infiltrate and sabotage popular governments.
Idk, while capitalism meddling in communist governments is a reoccurring theme, I think blaming all problems that have occurred within communist governments on any level of outside corruption is highly reductive.
The problem with Marx is that while it points out problems and offers some solutions, it doesn’t address the way to organize a governmental hierarchy. Specifically it does not outline the required path of transforming a revolutionary government into a functional communist government.
Revolutions require a very rigid hierarchy of control and command, and most often resembles a military command structure rather than a bureaucratic one. Transitioning the state control from the hands of revolutionary militants to bureaucratic policy makers is the pitfall of any revolution, Marxist or not.
I’m not well read in Marxism so I’m probably not qualified to answer this, but the recurring issue with Communism seems to be the same as capitalism, in that it requires people to not be assholes in order to properly function.
What part of Communism “requires people to not be assholes to function?”
Why do you think Capitalism would function if people were not assholes?
The recurring issue with Communism in practice is that it requires true equality amongst its citizens and there’s always some asshole or group of assholes who want power and dominion over others, so it seems to repeatedly fall into a practical dictatorship.
Capitalism at its best requires businesses to find and deploy the most effective and efficient means of product delivery in order to compete with each other, which means that the consumer will always have the best product at the best price allowed by the market. The problem is that greedy assholes either conglomerate competing companies into monopolies, or otherwise collude with one another to maximize their profit margins.
Why does Communism require “true equality amongst its citizens?” What does that even mean, in practical terms? How would a group of people take advantage of this to form a “practical dictatorship?”
Capitalism does not deploy the most efficient means of product delivery, but the most profitable. It means weaker but more profitable products are pushed, and rampant consumerism of useless trinkets is pushed for profit. Collusion and monopoly are not why Capitalism cannot work, those are merely symptoms of a broader exploitative system that naturally decays due to issues like the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall.
What of Marx have you read? Or any leftist theorist? I can make some suggestions for reading material if you wish.
Do you imagine a communist system that has social classes?
Castro, Zedong, Putin
You’re arguing Communism on a philosophical level against capitalism on a practical level.
As I said, I’m not well read and unprepared for the higher level argument you are seeking here.
I appreciate your desire to educate, but I’m too busy being exploited by the current system to dive further into social philosophy. When you guys are ready to rise up I’ll be there, but I won’t be a part of the debate on which system we should implement going forward.
If you are referring to the Marxian term, ie proletarians, bourgeois, etc. Of course not. Do you instead mean people must be paid equally, and there can be no management? Also of course not, Communism isn’t a bunch of horizontal organization and equal pay.
Putin is a Capitalist, so I am unsure of what you mean by including him here.
As for Mao and Castro, Mao lost power within the CPC over time and Castro retained power democratically, neither of which maintain your points. This appears to just be vibes.
What on Earth does that mean? I am advocating for Communism on both practical and philosophical grounds, this is just gibberish.
I am trying to get to a base level of understanding so we can have a conversation. I wouldn’t even call it an argument, I am just trying to get you to understand your own preconceptions.
Revolution doesn’t happen just because people vibe it into existence, it’s a consequence of deteriorating Material Conditions. If you don’t have time to read Marx, why do you have time to discuss Marxism online with strangers? This entire convo would have been better spent comprehending the bigger picture of Marxism.
From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs. - Marx in 1875.
Its not about equality, it’s about fair distribution of goods and services produced by the society. As in, it is fair that national leaders get to fly planes to travel abroad frequently,for example.
The recurring issue with communism is that capitalist powers keep on trying to corrupt, infiltrate and sabotage popular governments.
While there’s incentive from outsider agents to control the resources in a piece of land, and the population in that area, there’s risk that some people within that population will betray their people for individual gain.
There’s no passive corruption without active corruption. Active corruption happens for individual gain in detriment of other people. Active corruption is the role of money players, the capitalists.
Idk, while capitalism meddling in communist governments is a reoccurring theme, I think blaming all problems that have occurred within communist governments on any level of outside corruption is highly reductive.
The problem with Marx is that while it points out problems and offers some solutions, it doesn’t address the way to organize a governmental hierarchy. Specifically it does not outline the required path of transforming a revolutionary government into a functional communist government.
Revolutions require a very rigid hierarchy of control and command, and most often resembles a military command structure rather than a bureaucratic one. Transitioning the state control from the hands of revolutionary militants to bureaucratic policy makers is the pitfall of any revolution, Marxist or not.
https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/4527265
There’s a comment someone made in lemmygrad that reminded of your reply to me.
Sorry to not address it point by point, but I hope the link is useful. I’ll try to do it later, but can’t really promise it. :D
https://www.mlreadinghub.org/study-materials/reading-list