Why does Israeli defense essentially start with...
Their defense starts with "They attacked us, we are defending ourselves and that's our right. And to ensure that this does not happen again, we need to get rid of the terror organization Hamas."
I'm not a fan of how many civilians are getting killed.
On the other hand, keeping Hamas in power will ensure that this will go on forever and civilian on both sides will still be killed in decades with multiple 1-3-year gaps of pseudo-peace between.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like "holocaust", "concentration camp", "genocide", ... like it's their default vocabulary to build sentences.
There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security
I agree with that part.
And in my opinion, for Plastinian freedom and a secure Israel, Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
How many Palestinians exist in the whole world and how many have even bothered attacking a single Israeli despite decades of persecution
How is this relevant in this context?
I have just asked whether you have a source for your theory and explained why the holocaust comparison is bullshit. That's it.
Why even ask this?
Scroll up. Because of "Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis."
Can't we have a normal conversation here without all this hate
And if Hamas stays the government of Gaza, we can be sure, that it won't end in this decade.
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years.
I did not see it as a defense... More like a "Maybe, you are on the wrong side, too"...
I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
The numbers were always like that. Hamas kills X Israelis, Israel reacts and kill X * 10 Palestinians.
Thus, Hamas knew how bad the consequences of the latest massacre could be. I think, Hamas wanted all this. They wanted these pictures. They wanted to separate Israel and some Muslim-countries. One more reason to make sure, they lose power.
The US Administration admitted that their only source for the accusations about UNWRA employees in Gaza was “intelligence provided by Israel”
Where is the source for that?
And what does source mean? If Israel sent video material that shows UNWRA employees murdering Israelis, that should be enough, right?
There was a permanent solution, then a far-right Israeli extremist murdered Isaak Rabin, then Bibi got elected by the majority of Israelis and promptly renegued on the permanent solution.
Nice... And this is exactly why this war continues... Because of shit in the past. But with that logic, there will be no end.
Renegotiating a 2-state solution is just a stalling strategy from the racists
Who are the racists now? Are you actually classifying a whole nation as "racists"? That would be kind of..... racist.
The only solution is to go back enough that Israel loses all it has stollen in the meanwhile
And now, let's take a moment and ask, whether this is realistic... I'm not from Israel. I'm not from Gaza or the West Bank... But I can assure you that this is 1) not the only solution and 2) not really realistic. And I think, this is not actually the main wish of the people there. They are both sick of the never-ending war. That's their main problem.
massive sanctions and a blocade until they comply
Comply with what? Retreating from Gaza, so that Hamas re-gathers power, so that this conflict can go on forever?
Let's assume, it happens like that... Hamas (remember: they state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) builds new rockets, waits for 2 years and shoots them over the border again and kills a few hundred more people... What then? Don't you see this never-ending cycle, that can't be broken with Hamas in power?
As for the Nazi comparisons, go take it with Bibi and his bunch of Fascists demanding a “final solution”, suggesting Gaza should be nuked, calling Palestinians very explicitly “human animals”
Alright, the buzzword bingo begins again... No, thanks.
It was called concentration camp above. That's what I criticized.
I asked whether you have also counted Israelis outside of Israel in your equation..
And I asked whether you have a source that shows how many Palestinians live outside of the Palestine area... Would be interesting to know how many...
I'm not sure, why this deserves downvotes, but alright... I might have triggered some people with my general opinion..
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country
Sounds fancy, but this is as realistic as a permanent peace with Gaza as long as it is controlled by the Hamas terrorists that have the main goal to destroy Israel.
Staatsräson
In Germany, the word is criticised, because of the "Interpretationsspielraum" ("wiggle room").
but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
There are multiple German politicians warning about a disaster in Rafah, about flooding tunnels with sea water, etc. Acting like Germany is cheering "Well done, go on!!!" is far away from the truth.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
Interesting, because Germany was and is kind of well aligned with the Western World for the last decades...
Come on... Do you really think that multiple governments are like "Ah, Israel says that, so it must be true. No need for further research. We ignore that we have intelligence agencies.. We cancel support for UNWRA now!!!!!".
I don’t suggest shit for Israel to do because they’re as out of control as the Nazis once were
WTF am I reading there??? Is this a new hobby? Comparing everything with Nazi Germany? Let me guess... Netanyahu is as bad as Hitler? I'm sorry, but I don't even want to read the rest of it... It's too much of a buzzword bingo at this point...
I just want to tell you what I think is the "best" outcome at this point. And I think, the "best" outcome would be a permanent solution, not what we had before, because that led us to where we are now...
Steps:
There is no step 3 without step 1 and 2.
IMO, most of the other "solutions" (especially those that let Hamas in power) bring "peace" for a few years, but make sure that afterwards, this decade-long disaster continues for many more decades. This shit needs to end forever.
So many Palestinians live outside of Palestine.
And what about Israelis outside of Israel?
Just curious...
Do you have a source?
For me, this sounds like you want to say something that sounds cool, rather than something you actually believe. It sounds driven by emotion rather than by rationality.
The lemmy community gives you upvotes, the historians would ask you WTF you are doing and send you an invitation to actually visit what has been such a concentration camp.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis.
Is this even true? As far as I know, there are more people in Israel than people in Westbank + Gaza combined.
Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc.
There are some common solution suggestions (2-state-solution or even 3-state-solution) which don't require giving Palestinians rights in Israel, but rather rights in their own state(s).
to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive
Where is the point where you mention that there is proof that multiple (at least 12, maybe more) UNWRA people have actually been involved in the massacre on Israel last year? Oh, you ignored that fact...
which is cheaper than using Zyklon B
Reading this is disgusting.
It should be clear that the more people get killed there, the harder it is for Israel to get support from the Western world in the future. There is no reason to do what the Nazis did and "kill as much as possible of a specific group" here.
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet
So, you think, it's only a "Mini-holocaust"? Or a "10% holocaust"? I'd suggest not using the word if it does not fit.
To make this a more productive dialog: Given the fact that what happened can't be undone: What would you suggest Israel to do now?
Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can't be bad or genocide?
We have heard the bullshit comparison over and over agin. Abbas made it before the attack started. This war... Call it bad, call it brutal, but don't call it "holocaust" just to impress others or because it's a fancy word or because it makes you feel betzer or for whatever reason...
Here is one more example why especially Germany does also not see "the time before" as a holocaust and thinks that the comparison is bullshit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66741336
Oh oh, you have a different opinion than the majority... Now, it's raining arguments against you.
Oh, wait... It isn't. It's raining downvotes instead, because some people can't handle a different view on that emotion-driven holocaust comparison above.
As someone from Germany, reading this makes me angry.
I don't have the solution for this conflict, but when seeing the concentration camps in my country and understanding how much they must have hated Jews that they aimed to kill EVERYONE of them....
This is not the same! We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year. Otherwise, they could have stayed there during the last invasion.
The holocaust comparison does not help anyone.
Edit: Very nice... Downvoting different views on this comparison without sharing arguments... Closing the door for discourse is always very useful!!!!111 There is actually much we could agree on regarding this war, but yeah, go ahead and dislike me for not sharing your view that this is like the Holocaust. I'm from Germany where we visited tge remains of concentration camps twice during school time.... What do I know...? :/
Russia justified the invasion of Ukraine with "denazification". So, I don't care what Russia thinks about it. It's probably 60% bullshit and 40% propaganda.
And what is that whataboutism about the US and Assange? I'm not even from the USA, in case you thought that...
And even more whataboutism about Snowden?
Must be hard for you to just write something about the death of Nawalny without focussing 90% of the text on the Vietnam war, 9/11 and the moon landing.....
Oh, I understand the meaning of holocaust and regarding "meaning", I understand that people want to take the situation in Gaza and describe it as bad as possible... And then, they find the word "holocaust" and use it...
The problem: Most words have definitions. And if Lula says "it's like the Holocaust", he should expect that historians or maybe only random internet users look up the world "holocaust" and tell him that there are some huge differences. And that's pretty much what I'm doing here.
Let me make it even simpler. We are talking about N-state-solutions (N is some number) here. With Hamas (you know, those, who state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) in power, there is no chance for a permanent solution at all. I just hope that 1) Hamas loses power, followed by 2) Netanyahu losing power. This makes actual solutions possible.