Nah my strongest argument so far has been the study’s own results which proves there is a difference, and a trans person can’t fully change sex. They’re still biologically male or female.

Aw, you mad bro? Yeah this isn’t about your feelings at all is it.

We’ve been talking over the same study for like 10 comments, I can tell by your reading level you’re not capable of understanding that because of my educational and professional background I have some differing opinions on the conclusions of those involved with the study, and I’m allowed to. Thankfully voters agreed with me more, and those same leagues you want to dictate things have pretty universally applied anti-trans rules. So I think despite you whining and crying about what you want, you’re not gonna get it.

It is truly incredible that you believe 5min on google beats a degree, but that is the state of the world today, and shows your level of intellectual honesty. This is how facebook anti-vaxxing moms do things after all.

I 100% do, especially when combined with the structural differences in musculo-skeletal connections and tissue that this study but others have measured. If a doping/cheating method provided similar results, it would be banned from the sport, fuck they banned certain swimsuits over less.

This also doesn’t address at all the ability of trans men to metabolize testosterone quicker allowing them to more effectively hide steroid use and doping.

Yep, you’ve 100% convinced me that this argument you’re presenting is not about the facts at all but about your feelings.

Conclusion While transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable. Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.

Lol who can’t read again?

Jesus Christ yeah I’m done with transgender support on any level after you. If this is the level of intellectual honesty and scientific literacy I can expect.

Lol you keep saying it’s ‘my feelings’. It’s not. For the final time. My degree is in Excercise Science. The field’s opinion on that is lean muscle mass is the best predictor for athletic performance, period. And this politically biased study says that it doesn’t matter, but offers ZERO explanation for why they say something that definitely is NOT the scientific consensus. Which definitely makes me mistrust the study, kind of a lot, if you can point out where they explain why lean muscle was not considered to be important, please feel free. But honestly, that’s like saying the sky is green. Now, clearly your feelings are hurt and you’re a fanatic who can’t hear anything other than what they want to, so good day.

Also, if this thread is indicitive of how trans supporters act, and their general thoughts on the science behind the topic, maybe I was very wrong to have supported trans issues. Definitely food for thought for me today.

No actually I’m not, and this is my last comment since you’re too stupid to understand, clearly. Those researchers said lean muscle mass is not a predictor of athletic performance. That is not the scientific consensus of the field period. Their statement goes against science.

See here’s the thing. I don’t have to. I have a degree in Exercise Science. I know lean muscle mass percentage by weight is the best predictor for physical ability. So why these researchers conclude it isn’t without explanation is frankly entirely beyond me. I can’t find anything on why they concluded that way and it flies in the face of basically what I know and have studied. And when the conclusion doesn’t support the data like it does in that study I have to wonder what politically motivated reason there is for that.

Strongly believe it, just like body dysmorphia is no longer considered a psych illness, yet all trans options are still done through a psychologist. There most certainly are politically motivated aspects to that as well.

No, I’m saying that they stated that lean muscle mass doesn’t affect overall athletic ability, which is absolute horseshit of the highest tier. The best predictor of physical ability has always been lean muscle mass, and I cannot find why they concluded that it wasn’t a significant factor. So my conclusion is it’s political.

Thankfully this is the position of most sports professionals and those that dictate the rules. Also Washington made the sane choice on the ballot too.

Guess I should just vote Republican then and embrace it, thanks for convincing me of that!

Yeah I’m not going to be bullied or insulted into believing anything different. Nor am I going to be compared to Jim Crow era laws. The percentage of trans athletes is so small I’m very comfortable excluding them because I believe strongly the science supports the FACT that they have an inherent advantage, not to mention the increased ability to cheat among trans males.

My personal opinion on the subject is that the inherent lean mass increase and musculo-skeletal differences which affect how the muscle connects to the bone and is structured. Differences that persist despite puberty blockers. Those specific differences are still being studied but it is my FIRM opinion based on differences between men and women in strength that are very much apparent, this is an unfair advantage period, and I cannot and will not support trans athletes, period.

Apparently we do, and there are potentially millions of dollars in sports, and while fairness and equality may not be important to you they are to me, and trans people I feel violate that. I also believe in a sanctity of sports and place a high value on competition where we all agree on and can follow rules while doing something physical and having fun, I believe learning those skills are central to society.

Again are you seriously suggesting we what? Merge the WNBA with the NBA? There would be no women players that could field against the male athletes dude, that’s the entire point.

Again, Venus and Serena the GOATed all time tennis players doubted they could compete in the top 1000 if the women’s league were merged with the men’s. Is that what you want? Women to get absolutely dominated by men all the time in sports? I can say it’d be huge for right winged men’s mental health and feeling superior I guess if nothing else.

You’re reading the conclusions of the researchers and ignoring the actual numbers, which again, for the very last time actually do support a physical difference on muscle, and at this point you’ve descended to ad hominem and we’ll agree to disagree.

Dude separation of men and women’s events goes back to ancient Greece. The first olympics thousands of years ago was segregated by sex. Maybe Christo-fascists framed it that way but honestly it’s always been because pound for pound a woman just doesn’t compete with a man and it’s inherently not fair.

And yes seriously, I didn’t want to have a relationship with a trans person and multiple people labeled me as a transphobe over it which is totally not the case. I was friends with her before and after she transitioned and it was… weird for me and something I didn’t want. That to me was particularly insane, like, what more do you want from me?

I’m glad you at least have a sane and middle of the road thinking, and can see that there are at least levels to support.

Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences. Lean muscle mass IS greater in trans female athletes. Doping is easier to conceal in trans male athletes.

And I don’t know what should be done about sports, but that’s because I’m not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. It’s great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.

Bold assumption that I didn’t go to college and don’t have a bachelors in Exercise Science. I mean all I’ve ever wanted to do in life is train athletes lol.

But hey you can believe what you want and I’ll certainly continue believing what I do. I think your problem is largely that most sports at the moment, the sports medicine experts ARE advocating against trans athlete participation. The opinions of the researchers and scientists in those studies concluded that lean muscle mass doesn’t result in a competitive advantage. That is totally NOT the consensus of the field at large, and why people educated on the subject like myself are leery of the political impact on studies like this. Lean muscle mass as percentage of body weight remains the best predictor of physical ability. That’s not even addressing musculo-skeletal differences which deals with how muscle attaches to the skeleton or how muscle structurally forms, which IS different between the sexes, and unfortunately, presently HRT doesn’t affect, those differences persist regardless of puberty blockers present in prepubescence. So… tech has to get better to transition more completely.

Your own study that you just linked acknowledges a higher lean mass difference WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE MORE MUSCLE. The study says this doesn’t ‘necessarily automatically translate to greater athletic ability’ which personally I think is horseshit.

Nor does it address differences in musculo-skeletal mass. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/

It is absolute horseshit you think the science is squarely in your corner on this, because it most DEFINITELY isn’t.

What part of what I said above disagrees with you that this should be between a trans person and their doctor? That’s literally what I said. Unless consensus has changed post-puberty HRT is how they do things, blockers are used until puberty stops. There are advocates out there who are saying give the HRT and blockers OTC not understanding you can’t take both, and think that such a thing should be OTC and at the child’s decision alone which is INSANE.

Personally don’t plan on shutting up especially when you still haven’t addressed how you keep someone undergoing hormone treatments from beating doping in sports too. There are definitely issues with cheating already with the cis crowd, and it is actually much much easier for someone who’s taking hormones already to dope. Their levels can drop back down quicker during testing making it harder to detect cheating and steroid use.

Also it’s patently ridiculous to merge women’s and men’s leagues as Venus and Serena showed, and what my personal anecdote was about. Women can’t compete on the same level as men physically with sports. It’s ridiculous that Chess is separated by men and women’s leagues sure. But anything physical? You’re joking right? Or you’ve never done sports?

Lol you seriously just don’t get it do you.

Google about the time Serena and Venus Williams said they could beat any man outside the top 200. Remember they were ranked number 1 in women’s tennis and were absolutely crushing the women’s league back in 1998 when this happened.

They played a man who was number 203 and he absolutely smoked both of them. If you watch it you can tell he’s not even trying, something the Williams sisters even acknowledged in the interviews after. After that match, the Williams sisters, the best 2 players in women’s tennis went on record and said if they had to compete in the men’s league they didn’t even think they’d be able to place, and the level of competitive difference was ‘insane’. That’s straight from the mouths of the 2 best women in the world at their sport, and to this day the GOATed 2 competitors of their sport.

I’ve been involved in martial arts for almost 35 years now. I’ve been instructing for almost 20 of those years. I was professionally competitive back in the Pride days. I’ve trained with some of the best women fighters in the world, and none of them could beat me, and when I did I wasn’t even competitive or ranked. I’d even concede the fact that several of those women’s technique and form was better than mine. But the strength and speed differences are too great to be ignored. In the same weight class it’s not even competitive. I’ve given up 2 whole weight classes to women in practice before and it’s still not competitive. I can easily overpower women who are trained fighters who have almost 80lbs on me. The differences between a biological man and woman are insane.

Which brings me to the trans people in sports debate. I don’t think it’s fair at all for trans people to compete. A biological woman can be disqualified permanently for competing in virtually any league if it’s found she’s taken testosterone even once. Because testosterone creates PERMANENT changes to musculoskeletal mass. No amount of HRT can undo the differences in muscle mass and bone density that a person gets when he goes through puberty as a male. And as far as women who transition to men… they’re taking testosterone supplimentally and can too easily mask doping methods behind their HRT treatments. It’s far too easy for trans men athletes to cheat.

There are some crazy people out there who are saying that HRT should be over the counter and should be available to children because of this. Which is insane. First, I wouldn’t trust any life long decision I’dve ever made until I was around 22, and that might be being generous in retrospect. Second HRT has some serious side effects and should be an absolute last resort. I still think the attempt should be made to try and make someone comfortable in their own body and definitely need some psych approval before making such a life altering decision. And finally… you need to be out of puberty before you start playing around with major hormones like that. The teenage years are crazy enough with all that and you really want to pile on more? Why not force feed them LSD while you’re at it CIA style? I think it might be less mentally damaging.

Final note and it’s more a vent than anything. A trans supporter seriously told me that I’m transphobic because I said I wouldn’t date a trans person as I’d be uncomfortable with that. They took this to mean that I didn’t accept them as a woman fully, which on reflection is kinda true, on a sexual attraction level it would be hard for me to resolve mentally that this person who is now definitely a woman wasn’t once a man. I think it’s equally ridiculous that my sexual preferences can be dictated by others and if I’m uncomfortable with intimacy of that nature that somehow makes me a bigot, especially when I’ve gone out of my way to accommodate and support the trans community. I’ve always supported the gay community, even back in the 90s and early 2000s living in an area where… you just didn’t in those days. When a guy came out in our conservative school back in the day, I literally defended him, and went to bat at 5 to 1 odds. And no gay guy ever said I had to be on board with dating one of them to support the community.

And yes, despite being against trans people competing in sports and being uncomfortable with dating a trans person, I still consider myself to be a supporter of the community. I believe everyone has a right to be happy, and if that’s what it takes, go for it. And push comes to shove you’d better bet I’ll do what I can to protect a trans person should they need it, as I would stand up for any victim to any bully. Hopefully I’m not just branded ‘transphobic’ and seen as an enemy when I disagree with you on a few points.