... But jews aren't considered refugees.... I fail to see your point in comparing that, since european jews are indeed not refugees. Their grandparents were refugees after the 2nd world war, but now they're Israelis or migrated to another country. In both cases, not refugees anymore.
What country did Palestinians migrate to?
because they value their citizens
Hiding hostages in a highly populated residential area, without any means of self defense or even evacuation safe zones, is not called valuing the citizens. It's called using them as leverage, something terrorists love doing to civilians.
What did the spilling of blood on oct.7 did to Palestinians? Make them live in hell for over 8 months? Make thousands die? And for what, for massacring Israelis? What do you think Hamas has done in oct.7 that would make you think they "value their citizens" - coz to me it only looks like they just wanna kill jews.
You mean their grandparents were displaced by Israel. They themselves were born in Gaza or the West bank, and should be considered residents of that land. If attempts of trying to "free palestine" by terrorism stop, and plans like Oslo could be continued of establishing a state in the 67 borders, then Palestinians can stop being refugees. Meanwhile no Palestinian organization is doing what's good for their people - which is to try and make peace over existing borders.
I mean, say what you want but 100% dozens of those 200 are Hamas terrorists. He's not wrong. Heck, we don't even know if it was indeed 200 killed.
Also how is nobody here even a bit mad over Hamas hiding hostages in a refugee camp?
Ah yes, so every american shouldn't ever feel any joy because they were born on stolen land.
Get out of here. Any person saying they want the 48 borders are a lunatic living in la-la land. You only enforce the Israeli twisted view of "there could never be peace with them" by actually showing that you want the genocide of all Israelis, instead of realistic borders of a palestinian state. Fuck you.
Ah yes, well established fact... By who exactly? By kids at universities thousands of kilometers away?
And even if we take your (baseless) estimate of 1:4 ratio, that's still nowhere close to call it a targeted attack on civilians. Compare it to other urban warfare, and see for yourself, they don't kill enough civilians to justify any of your claims.
Look at the numbers, and actually base your own opinion, rather than repeating words that people who are very not objective keep repeating. And differentiate between the IDF and the Israeli government. Since they're vastly different both in world-view (one being extremely corrupt right wing) and in actions done. The racist israeli government expands settlements (and almost sparked a mini civil war between jews and arabs, ahem ahem Ben Gvir), while the IDF manages to supply aid trucks into Gaza, and evacuate Gazans from their (tunnel holes and weapon having) homes.
Basically your whole pov is based on the fact that you think the IDF are targeting civilians. Since you're clearly set in that opinion, I won't further that point. Just food for thought: if they really do target civilians... Do you think the numbers would truly be 1:2 Hamas:civilian? If so, then sure. Whatever.
Oh and I'd love a source on that "vast majority of Palestinian prisoners are innocents" claim, since that sounds pretty far fetched, even considering the borderline alt-right current Israeli government.
And I really wish to understand your logic on Hamas not being genocidal... Is firing rockets almost every year towards civilian areas not a "concrete pattern of action"? Also, does genocide must happen towards a religion? What does the victim's jewishness have anything to do with it?
Hamas wants to exterminate all Israelis. They keep saying it, and before oct.7 everyone thought (like you) that they're all bark no bite, just saying stuff. That proved to be false. They bite, and they mean what they say. They proved it all too well, and I really don't see how you fail to see their very really intent to kill all Israelis.
The only thing keeping Israelis from death by Hamas is the IDF. They'd all be dead or relocated (probably dead if we trust their rhetoric, which I do, after seeing their barbarism).
And again, if you truly think the IDF is more barbaric than Hamas, I just have no words. You either haven't seen the videos hamas posted themselves, or are blinded by hate.
Bombing houses (after evacuation notices, which you call genocidal - I call humane. Do you wish they bombed it without warning in advance?) is soooooo much less barbaric than abusing dead bodies and burning families with their houses (knowingly, and shooting/kidnapping them when they leave).
Lots to reply here so I'll just focus on some points I want to stress
First, lumping the IDF with the Israeli government is very wrong, and shows you have no real idea of how that military works. It's like blaming the german army of genocide in WW2 instead of the nazi regime. The IDF really do their best to hurt as few civilians they can, and only target threatening targets in Gaza. The IDF is not commiting genocide, according to the definition, by the simple fact that it isn't targeting genocidal goals. Yes, it dislocates and even kills civillians, but none are intentional or targeted, and they literally give up the element of surprise (something which 100% costs them military lives) in order to evacuate civilians before an invasion/bombing. As an army, it's outstandingly humane.
Another point about the IDF, with regards to barbarism. You should really look at what Hamas did on oct.7, and try to compare it to how the IDF works. Comparing the two in terms of barbarism is really nuts.
The Israeli government tho on the other hand, are pretty much just as you say. If you allowed Ben Gvir to do as he pleases, we'd have a legit genocide of 2 million dead Gazans. The difference is that Israel has a functioning court of law (which Netanyahu a.k.a putin2.0 tried to weaken), and an actual opposition in their Parliament, which prevents them from acting on those genocidal plans (not 100% works tho, as we've seen in the start of the war where no aid trucks arrived at Gaza)
Oh and about the kidnapped vs palestinians arrests, don't compare people who commit (or try to commit) terrorism to people who simply lived in a Kibutz/partied in the Nova.
Finally, Hamas is completely genocidal. Their lack of means of acting on that will, doesn't make them less genocidal. Their "exterminate all jews" rhetoric is definitely a literal goal, considering the act of oct.7, which the main plan was sieging cities/Kibbutzim and killing/kidnapping their residence. It wasn't just "a hateful rhetoric" it was a well planned extermination of the civilians, which sadly worked brilliantly.
(about the last part, comparing extremists israelis and Gazans)
Dude that's just bullshit. First, these Israelis absolutely have a reason to fight. They have kidnapped civilians held in captive under god knows what conditions.
Second, you're comparing people who block aid trucks to people who raped and slaughtered families. Think about what type of person it takes to do either of these, then realize who you're excusing.
Both extremists are despicable, but coloring Palestinian extremists as "resisting" (raping and abusing bodies) and Israelis as genocidal is plain hypocritical. Both extremists are genocidal, with one side being more barbaric. We should condemn both, and not make excuses for both.
But since you're providing excuses for one side ("resisting") I wanted to provide the excuse for the other side. Which tbh, is a better excuse, since it can actually possibly get them results (getting the kidnapped back is an option, exterminating all jews is less so).
Dude if they were to kill indiscriminately then yeah, but 1:2 terrorist:civillian numbers sure as heck doesn't sound indiscriminate.
A thing which isn't happening, considering there's food in Gaza...
Maybe in the start of the war when there was a blockade, but that's an order from the israeli government and they're getting an arrest warrant for it.
I wasn't clear. Apologies.
I meant whole as in both terrorists and civilians. And they're not doing that, they're targeting Hamas. If they'd target civilians, then x100 the casualties.
Nah, it's only genocide if it's carried with the intent to target the whole ethnic group, including civilians. Something that if the IDF really wanted, would've meant 100 times the casualties.
I seriously don't see when I talked about IDF inside Israeli borders. The decision of not allowing water/food into Gaza has nothing to do with the IDF, or with the how the IDF acts in Israel. I'm really confused about what you're saying here about IDF inside of Israel.
And no, I definitely don't consider Gaza as a part of Israel. I don't think any sane person does. Stop trying to color me with right-wing fanatics. I'm just putting the blame where it's supposed to be. War crimes - Israel's government. Serious war crimes which escalated this whole conflict - Hamas. Meanwhile the IDF is (by what's been proven) seriously doing its best to avoid war crimes - and doing it not so badly, considering the ratio of civilians/militants dead.
Not trusting the numbers in that source is fair, but I've yet to see any other numbers who make their point different. Civilian/militant ratio in Gaza is low (relative to similar dense urban warzones), and I've yet to see anyone saying otherwise.
And when did I mention the IDF in Israel's border? I pointed out how right wing and bad the Israeli government is, and how the only legit (based on facts) critisizm I saw was directed at the Israeli government, not the army. How that have anything to do with the IDF's actions inside Israel is beyond me.
And again, I responded to the "maybe listen" comment and said I am listening and the only thing which was proven to be true is the food and water thing. Which again - has nothing to do with the army.
I'll also add that the "maybe listen" part about Hamas' war crimes works, since their crimes are heavily recorded and with solid proofs. Unlike the war crimes allegations of genocide, which are currently mainly based on words said, and not actions done in Gaza. Just read the south african allegations, and the Israeli response to those allegations. It's laughable.
Based on the link I sent literaly 2 comments above this.
And I would 100% believe people pointing to war crimes, if it weren't an ongoing trial with a defense and lack of evidence so far.
I'm totally down to punish war crimes, but when there's no proof, or if the proof is based on words instead of actions, then I don't like to take that seriously.
Meanwhile the only war crime that was proven to be done in Gaza is not allowing food and water to go in. And that's not the IDF, that's the Israeli government's policy. A government so right wing that the people of Israel were in protests over it for months. Anyone from that government going to jail is a blessing.
Modern day SS? Where is the forced labour? Where are the death camps?
You need to choose, They're either: Nazis who are exterminating Palestinians, or an army in a warzone. One of these is true for the IDF, and I see a severe lack of disregard for human life, considering they're evacuating people before engaging.
And that kids, is why peace just isn't thing in the middle east. When you think of the other side as something meant to just be destroyed, don't be surprised when peace doesn't last and ceasefires break.