I find this morally reprehensible. I have always spoken against defederazation when others have mentioned it. This is too much. Apologies if this upsets anyone.
Palestinians are human beings and have a right to life.
Edit: I have been persuaded by some thoughtful replies. I will block them from my view. I no longer support making the decision for others. Thanks all.
It is possible to be pro-Palestinian and anti-Hamas at the same time.
Similarly, it is possible to be pro-Jewish and anti-Israel at the same time.
They key is to be in favour of, and supporting, the innocent civilians that are NOT wielding hate and bigotry, and in direct and vociferous opposition to the power structures on BOTH sides that have looked true evil in the eye and said, “hold my beer and watch this”.
I am as anti-Hamas as I am anti-Israel. Both power/political structures are among the most reprehensibly evil orgs on the planet at this time.
I stand with the innocent civilians; with THE PEOPLE.
I’m not pro-Hamas but I dislike Israel more because Hamas are fighting their captors. I can understand that. I believe if Palestine was granted statehood and equal rights, Hamas would cease operating. If it continued to operate, I would be anti-Hamas as much as I am anti-Israel. The power imbalance makes treating them with equal disdain irrational.
Do you have evidence to support that hypothesis?
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/25/middleeast/hamas-officials-say-group-willing-to-disarm-if-palestinian-state-is-established-mime-intl/index.html
What I meant to ask was if there was any historical evidence of a violent rebel group actually giving up power when they win.
But you did respond to what I literally asked with evidence, so hard to argue with that.
This is not a violent rebel group, they are the government defending their home from foreign invaders. But the Vietcong and ANC are both no longer in power if you mean that.
Usually after violent revolution comes a few years of unrest. Stability does not come directly. But first the colonizers must be removed else that period will never be reached.
No. That’s why it’s a belief. That’s also why I stated that if it turned out to be wrong, I would consider Hamas just as bad as Israel.
Fair enough. I just don’t know of a case where a violent rebel group took over a government/land and then immediately dissolved.
Same - and it’s weird to see so many leftists immediately jump to unconditional support for Hamas, who are literally a reactionary, religious fundamentalist force and who have done horrible things towards Palestinian people.
Armed resistance to Israel does not negate its evils or its reactionary internal role.
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Hamas might be doing bad things, but there is no need to condemn Hamas in order to also criticise Israel. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Hamas exists and has the power it does because of Israel.
I dunno how many people have seen season 2 of Star Wars: Andor, but there’s a part in that where the Empire funds rebels on a planet specifically because they want them to do terrorism so they have an excuse to come in and genocide the people. They want to manufacture consent for genocide, and while we don’t see a lot of the broader public’s reaction, it certainly seems to have worked.
That whole thing is literally taken directly from real-world conflicts, including this one. Netanyahu himself directly funded Hamas because he knew they were more extreme than other Palestinian organisations, and by doing that, he helped create the conditions where he can continue to escalate the genocide while the world sits by watching. Every person killed or otherwise harmed by Hamas is Israel’s fault. And that’s before you get into all the murders of children, doctors, and journalists done directly by Israelis.
In Star Wars, we side with the rebels even though sometimes they do terroristic things that cause innocent deaths. Why? Because they’re rebelling against genocide. Once the genociders are wiped out entirely, we can talk about how a good government for the people should be run.
I don’t “support” Hamas, but neither do I condemn them. I recognise them as the direct result of Israel’s genocide. Effectively, another agent of the Israeli government. The only way to defang Hamas’s actions is for Israel to pull back, unilaterally, to the 1948 borders and to provide massive aid in reparation to the civilians who they have harmed through the IDF, through West Bank settlers, and through Hamas. Terrorists thrive in injustice, and anything that doesn’t fully call for Israel doing everything to cease the injustice is pissing in the wind.
If you oppose armed resistance against genocide you are pro genocide. It is that simple
If you are anti Hamas you are anti Palestinian. Because Hamas are the ones fighting against the occupation and genocide. Else you can pretend to be pro Palestinian by supporting the PA which is nothing more than an extension of Israel oppressing Palestinians.
But besides that, Feddit is straight up banning calls for Zionism to be abolished which is full undeniable pro-Zionism
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There is a very gray line between an IDF soldier and a “civilian” because they are all soldiers. Colonialism inherently needs its “civilians” to be soldiers, because if they would not be there would be a severe shortage in manpower to surpress the natives.
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International what? If they join the genocide army at its whims they are part of it.
You should read up on past revolutions against colonialism. Like Haiti.
It’s not quite that simple. Hamas is a deeply corrupt and counterproductive organization. Israel arranges funding for them and supports them against their political opposition, because having Hamas largely in charge of (edit:
Palestine) Gaza is often a disaster for the Palestinians, which Israel enjoys.You can absolutely oppose Israel’s genocide and also oppose Hamas’s horrifying fig-leaf of “resistance” to that genocide which is mostly useless militarily, and just provides useful pretexts for Israel to do more genocide (not that they need them.)
This is where your argument goes from incomplete to bizarre. Why do you say the PA which Israel dislikes is an extension of Israel, while Hamas which Israel likes and supports (in between military operations) is an authentic resistance organization?
Israel props up Hamas because it knows it can get away with the terrorist framing to justify it’s escalation of ethnic cleansing and apartheid to western powers. Israel regularly assassinates and imprisons more moderate leadership so that fundamentalist groups gain more prominence. This is the way Israel likes to justifies it’s blockade, mowing the lawn, and divide Gaza/West Bank. If you think Hamas is being played by Israel, sure. But it’s not like they have any option other than armed resistance. I can critisize their methods all I want, but at the end of the day, I’m not the one living in Gaza, I have no clue what it’s really like living in those hellish conditions, I don’t really know what I’d be willing to do to try to break free from the Zionist entity that has routinely bombed, imprisoned, tortured loved ones for generations in the largest open air prison on earth.
Hamas is a genuine resistance against Zionism, to say it’s a fig-leaf of resistance implies that it is not a genuine opposition but just a front. There is plenty to criticize, but they are a genuine opposition. They have already agreed to give up governance, as long as a unified Palestinian leadership can take place (they’ve advocated for this as part of the peace deal since Oct 8th) and Hamas changes to a regular army under that leadership.
The PA is a fig-leaf of resistance because they directly work under Israel to violently suppress resistance against the settler colonialism and apartheid in the West Bank. The PA is Counter Insurgency (COIN) wielded by Israel to prolong the Apartheid and continue to delay any semblance of statehood. The PA is viewed by Palestinians nearly just as negatively as Israel because of that. They assist Israel’s expansion and crack down on resistance. It’s another arm of Israel’s Apartheid apparatus
Absolutely agree with all of this.
Yeah. I get this… I’m not trying to sit in judgement of anyone in that situation. Maybe I overstepped my bounds in saying some of these things, that’s fair. I’m just saying that “trying to break free” in a way which basically just plays into Israel’s hands and gives them the pretext they were looking for to eliminate Gaza once and for all is not resistance, even if it feels like it is at the time.
What the Palestinians actually need is from someone from outside, from one of these powers that has more money, weapons, and size than Israel by 100 times over or more, to step in. And no one is, while they die like leaves in Autumn.
Yeah, pretty much. What I’m saying is that Israel overpowers them both by so overwhelmingly much that neither of them is “permitted” to accomplish anything at all. Hamas is permitted to splinter the Palestinians politically, and to commit terrorism from time to time, not nearly enough to be a threat but enough to keep a lot of people (certainly a lot of Israelis) hating the Palestinians and providing a good pretext.
The PA I know less about, but if they are fully corrupted and complicit in Israel’s oppression that would make sense to me.
You’re not wrong about the Palestinians having no options at all. I don’t even know what they are supposed to do.
Adi Callai does a great job explaining the PA and counter insurgency here in his video about The Gaza Ghetto Uprising, but the entire video and many others on his channel are well worth the watch
I also have a bunch of quoted articles about how the PA works under Israel to crack down on resistance in this comment
Reading Franz Fanon, Adi Callai has a video on him as well, really opened my understanding about the violence of resistance groups. Not that it justifies or trivializes those actions against civilians, that is of course unacceptable, but Fanon gives the context of the oppressed that me and many westerners cannot comprehend. Context about the unrelenting violence of the oppressors, of being against a far militarily superior force set on supremacy, of how armed struggle evolves as the oppression expands in scope and cruelty.
Israel doesn’t dislike the PA. The PA works for Israel.
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They literally have talked openly about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas#Use_of_Hamas_to_undermine_the_Palestinian_Authority
The idea that they were ever a “charity organization” is pure fantasy. The destruction of Israel is in the charter. Literally everyone else in these comments is aware that they are focused around armed resistance to an occupation. That is literally their reason for being.
When I am king, the one and only rule on Lemmy will be that anyone who tells their opponent what it is their opponent believes, when neither their opponent or even anyone else said the thing they’re saying, will not just be banned. Someone will go to their house and kick them, and tell them sternly, “No!”
I actually feel duped that I took your comment seriously enough to dig up citations for why it was wrong. Reading the end, it’s clear to me that you’re either just trying to provoke conflict for reasons of your own, or else you’re more or less just sitting down at your computer to go BLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBL onto Lemmy thinking that it is productive input.
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I said literally nothing at all about the PA. My point was that Hamas is corrupt, violent, and counterproductive, which is why the government of Israel supports them. Them periodically killing civilians or IDF people is extremely useful for Likud, which is why Likud likes them. Nothing Palestinian is strong enough to present any genuine threat of any kind of resistance. If Hamas or the PA could present anything like a real threat to Israel as a whole, the leaders would react differently, but different trivial numbers of Israelis killed by one or the other has absolutely no bearing on anything I’m saying.
You seem like you are persistently claiming I am saying one thing, and arguing very vigorously against that thing. Like I or someone here is trying to compare the PA to Hamas. I thought it was weird that you held up the PA as the “fake” resistance or seemed to be missing the point so thoroughly, but I think the only time I ever even mentioned them was asking you some questions about your own point of view.
Because it barely matters anymore. They are just killing everyone in Gaza.
For a time, they needed to delegitimize Palestine on the world stage, and Hamas was violent enough and not-PA enough to serve that purpose.
Now, what they need to do is pretend that their “war” is against Hamas and not against a totally defenseless wreckage of starving, traumatized familes, and so holding up some dead Hamas people is useful for them.
It’s different behavior for different situations. This is not some kind of PhD argument I am making here, that needs a deep understanding in order to grasp it. I honestly have no idea why you are so amped up about this or not listening to anything I am saying, and determined to “win” the exchange instead. I hope you grow out of it, and learn to blossom into the beautiful butterfly of online discoursing that you always knew you could be.
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Hamas =/= Palestine, Like Zionist facists =/= Israel or represent any Jewish person with a conscience.
They have killed innocent people just like the IDF has.