Its about ‘Honor Based Violence’ as it pertains to males being involved in violence against other males, when the inciting incident is a woman’s honor being insulted.
Also how forced marriages harm and are used to punish non gender conforming males in hyperpatriarchichal societies.
… The study begins by basically saying that uh, no one really bothers to study this within a feminist framework, almost all existing research is geared toward how women are harmed.
That’s not what that article is about, but I imagine you knew that already. 31% of the participants were experiencing it due to homophobia, 37% were because they didn’t want to marry who their parents wanted, 10% were due to wanting to get rid of them due to disability. Literally none of that is at it relates to an inciting incident of female honor being insulted. The article also makes a point of mentioning how this is a patriarchal problem and how women still make up an overwhelmingly large percentage of victims. None of this proves any point about how standing up for women is somehow a huge proportion of male on male violence.
This is a tactic fascists use. Just throwing in a study with no real relation to the topic. It’s to waste someone’s time and energy and divert the topic.
You clearly are not engaging in good faith and I invite anyone to read that study and confirm it does not say what you are suggesting.
This study focuses pretty much entirely on forced marriage as a punishment for men/boys who fail to live up to hypermasculine standards.
I misread it.
… It is nearly midnight, and I lost my glasses years ago now.
Doing this whole convo on a cheap phone I bought at a gas station years ago now, many states away.
Homelessness is not fun.
Either way, yep, my bad, I did not represent this study accurately, apologies.
Maybe tomorrow I’ll try to find a study that actually attempts to even document the male propensity to… act physically, and violently, on behalf of someone they care about, as compared to women…
But frankly, I am both baffled by how difficult it is to find like, statistically valid, large sample studies on this, as well as being baffled by your incredulity to the validity of this concept.
I… guess maybe a lookup of man on man v man on women v women on women assault and battery and murder statistics… if they all actually include some kind of ‘why did this occur’ in the records… could verify or falsify this… but it seems like I would literally have to do such a meta analysis myself.
That… or it is midnight and I am too tired to figure out how to search for such a study properly.
Either way, the… entire ingrained, toxic masculinity/patriarchy paradigm… men being both socially expected to, and being generally physically more naturally predisopsed to do acts of physical violence, often to uphold the honor of, of avenge an insult to a friend or lover…
This concept is so widely ingrained in nearly all cultures, through nearly all history… and is easily visible if one ever just… goes to a moderately busy bar or other social event with a good mix of men and women…
That I am incredulous at your incredulity of this being a phenomenon that happens, that a guy will insult another guy’s girlfriend, and this will cause a fight between the two men.
I understand your desire for actual empirical numbers to work with, but I do no comprehend how you can doubt that… this is a common thing that happens quite often, it is a huge part of patriarchy and toxic masculinity itseld.
I appreciate you owning up to the fact that this study does not say what you claimed it did. I have a hard time believing it could have been misread as such regardless of local time or eyesight, but at least we’re on the same page.
I don’t know why you’re acting as though I said men have never in all of history stood up for women. I’m not making that case. I just don’t have a reason to believe that makes up a majority of man on man violence. How many times have I seen that vs how many times have I seen two men fight over a spilled drink or a parking space or some other frivolous thing. I don’t think the evidence is there to suggest that man on man violence is somehow secretly also the fault of women, which seemed to be that persons point.
Not sure you realize it was me you responded to elsewhere in this thread, but since you accused me of essentially patronizing you, I won’t make any comments about your personal situation. I only note that because you brought it up, and I’d hate to have you point to me not mentioning it as some lack of empathy.
Man I should’ve read further before I read that whole study. 29 cases, 9 of which were forced marriage by family because the man was suspected to be gay… for sure not what that comment had me expecting. Glad they owned up to it.
Did you read case 16? The point of the study was to talk about male victims of violence, but then case 16 is that his family was mean to him, then kidnapped the girlfriend they didn’t approve of. Jesus Christ. Definitely not what I was expecting.
Yea, unfortunately I read the whole study out of good faith. It’s wild that comment has as many upvotes as it does, but just goes to show how little people actually care about the truth and how ready they are to accept anything that purports to back their own claims. Or hopefully that Lemmy is being astroturfed already and no one actually believes that, they’re just sowing division.
Every case is just gross and a great example of how patriarchy harms men. I can’t believe people think that they can marry off their disabled son and they’d just be effectively cared for by their new wife. Heartbreaking. I can’t imagine effectively telling my child I’m sick of caring for them so I’m just giving that responsibility to someone who they don’t know and who’s being forced to care for them with no training or presumably forewarning.
Here’s a study.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0886260521997928
Its about ‘Honor Based Violence’ as it pertains to males being involved in violence against other males, when the inciting incident is a woman’s honor being insulted.
Also how forced marriages harm and are used to punish non gender conforming males in hyperpatriarchichal societies.
… The study begins by basically saying that uh, no one really bothers to study this within a feminist framework, almost all existing research is geared toward how women are harmed.
That’s not what that article is about, but I imagine you knew that already. 31% of the participants were experiencing it due to homophobia, 37% were because they didn’t want to marry who their parents wanted, 10% were due to wanting to get rid of them due to disability. Literally none of that is at it relates to an inciting incident of female honor being insulted. The article also makes a point of mentioning how this is a patriarchal problem and how women still make up an overwhelmingly large percentage of victims. None of this proves any point about how standing up for women is somehow a huge proportion of male on male violence.
This is a tactic fascists use. Just throwing in a study with no real relation to the topic. It’s to waste someone’s time and energy and divert the topic.
You clearly are not engaging in good faith and I invite anyone to read that study and confirm it does not say what you are suggesting.
Hey, you know what?
You’re right.
This study focuses pretty much entirely on forced marriage as a punishment for men/boys who fail to live up to hypermasculine standards.
I misread it.
… It is nearly midnight, and I lost my glasses years ago now.
Doing this whole convo on a cheap phone I bought at a gas station years ago now, many states away.
Homelessness is not fun.
Either way, yep, my bad, I did not represent this study accurately, apologies.
Maybe tomorrow I’ll try to find a study that actually attempts to even document the male propensity to… act physically, and violently, on behalf of someone they care about, as compared to women…
But frankly, I am both baffled by how difficult it is to find like, statistically valid, large sample studies on this, as well as being baffled by your incredulity to the validity of this concept.
I… guess maybe a lookup of man on man v man on women v women on women assault and battery and murder statistics… if they all actually include some kind of ‘why did this occur’ in the records… could verify or falsify this… but it seems like I would literally have to do such a meta analysis myself.
That… or it is midnight and I am too tired to figure out how to search for such a study properly.
Either way, the… entire ingrained, toxic masculinity/patriarchy paradigm… men being both socially expected to, and being generally physically more naturally predisopsed to do acts of physical violence, often to uphold the honor of, of avenge an insult to a friend or lover…
This concept is so widely ingrained in nearly all cultures, through nearly all history… and is easily visible if one ever just… goes to a moderately busy bar or other social event with a good mix of men and women…
That I am incredulous at your incredulity of this being a phenomenon that happens, that a guy will insult another guy’s girlfriend, and this will cause a fight between the two men.
I understand your desire for actual empirical numbers to work with, but I do no comprehend how you can doubt that… this is a common thing that happens quite often, it is a huge part of patriarchy and toxic masculinity itseld.
Anyway… I’m off to bed now.
I appreciate you owning up to the fact that this study does not say what you claimed it did. I have a hard time believing it could have been misread as such regardless of local time or eyesight, but at least we’re on the same page.
I don’t know why you’re acting as though I said men have never in all of history stood up for women. I’m not making that case. I just don’t have a reason to believe that makes up a majority of man on man violence. How many times have I seen that vs how many times have I seen two men fight over a spilled drink or a parking space or some other frivolous thing. I don’t think the evidence is there to suggest that man on man violence is somehow secretly also the fault of women, which seemed to be that persons point.
Not sure you realize it was me you responded to elsewhere in this thread, but since you accused me of essentially patronizing you, I won’t make any comments about your personal situation. I only note that because you brought it up, and I’d hate to have you point to me not mentioning it as some lack of empathy.
Man I should’ve read further before I read that whole study. 29 cases, 9 of which were forced marriage by family because the man was suspected to be gay… for sure not what that comment had me expecting. Glad they owned up to it.
Did you read case 16? The point of the study was to talk about male victims of violence, but then case 16 is that his family was mean to him, then kidnapped the girlfriend they didn’t approve of. Jesus Christ. Definitely not what I was expecting.
Yea, unfortunately I read the whole study out of good faith. It’s wild that comment has as many upvotes as it does, but just goes to show how little people actually care about the truth and how ready they are to accept anything that purports to back their own claims. Or hopefully that Lemmy is being astroturfed already and no one actually believes that, they’re just sowing division.
Every case is just gross and a great example of how patriarchy harms men. I can’t believe people think that they can marry off their disabled son and they’d just be effectively cared for by their new wife. Heartbreaking. I can’t imagine effectively telling my child I’m sick of caring for them so I’m just giving that responsibility to someone who they don’t know and who’s being forced to care for them with no training or presumably forewarning.