So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can’t just exist and go about my life? I mean, I don’t see this helping the problem.
So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can’t just exist and go about my life?
That’s what women apparently have to do to avoid being treated like meat. They can’t “just exist and go about [their lives],” so why do you think you should be entitled to?
If you don’t like it, help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood.
Here’s a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
Well your last sentence really shows you don’t care. Let’s see how this works. If you don’t like women getting treated like meat help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood. Am I doing it right? It’s this how we help each other fix problems?
Here’s a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
Of course! Women, if a strange man approaches you just say “no thank you.” Legally they cannot assault you, and it is socially unacceptable for them to do so.
Here’s a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
Okay, so how are you, personally gonna make people stop?
Or are you just going to do nothing (except attack the “uppity” women who are complaining about it) and consider it to be not your problem? 'Cause the result of that is women continuing to suffer while men enjoy privilege. It sure sounds like that’s what you actually want.
Let’s see how this works. If you don’t like women getting treated like meat help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood. Am I doing it right? It’s this how we help each other fix problems?
Assuming you understand that “the root of the problem” is male aggression, yes! As I wrote a minute ago in another comment:
…the real answer is “actively work to stop other people from treating people like shit,” and even more specifically, “understand who the aggressors and victims are so you don’t make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves.”
If us non-sexist/predatory men don’t want to be lumped in with the assholes, it’s our obligation to actively ally with women to stop the assholes. It doesn’t fucking matter if it’s “fair” or not; that’s just how the world works.
Or are you just going to do nothing (except attack the “uppity” women who are complaining about it) and consider it to be not your problem?
Ok.
Never once did I do this. I’ve been saying, over and over, that everyone should be treated like a human. All I can do is be the change I want to see.
You then just go on to blame men for everything. Men are the problem. Women being treated poorly, men’s fault. Men being treated poorly, men’s fault.
So women never do anything wrong and it’s all men’s fault. And I need to magically fix the whole problem or shut up and deal with being treated poorly.
You are a toxic person. You are dishonest, putting words in my mouth. You are the reason why people don’t take feminism seriously. You’re more interested in bashing men than trying to solve anything.
I’m done. I’m not going to waste my time without someone who can’t have a conversation without sarcastic attacks and lying about my actions and stances. Get blocked troll.
Take a moment and think about the consequences here for women vs the consequences for men.
Women: at risk of sexual assault in a society that down plays it, victim blames, and often fails to bring justice to the purpitrator.
Men: at risk of women giving them dirty looks.
This is like complaining about needing to ask for someone to unlock something for you because “I’m not going to steal anything, why are you treating me like a criminal?”
Never once did I do this. I’ve been saying, over and over, that everyone should be treated like a human. All I can do is be the change I want to see.
No, that’s not all you can do. Namely, you can quit pretending that the bad behavior of other men isn’t your problem if you don’t want to be lumped in with them.
You then just go on to blame men for everything. Men are the problem. Women being treated poorly, men’s fault. Men being treated poorly, men’s fault.
Yeah, that’s because it unironically is. Because in a male-dominated society men have the power and women don’t. What part of privilege and power dynamics do you not understand?
You are a toxic person. You are dishonest, putting words in my mouth. You are the reason why people don’t take feminism seriously. You’re more interested in bashing men than trying to solve anything.
You’re the toxic one here. You’re trying to DARVO the situation to make men the victims, but we’re just not.
I’m done. I’m not going to waste my time without someone who can’t have a conversation without sarcastic attacks and lying about my actions and stances. Get blocked troll.
LOL, you’re just whining because you can’t deal with having your privilege challenged.
A person proposed an issue, on how they’re treated and not knowing what to do. Your response was a check list to go through and things you have to do, but but too much, and don’t ignore certain people. Your solution to the problem is unreasonable, that’s what I’m saying.
Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
The last two sentences is a summary and all that someone needs to remember, but would be too vague without the previous context. There isn’t a less complicated answer.
Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
Is being honest too difficult? There is no room to have a conversation here with how you’re presenting things. This isn’t just “don’t stare” and you presenting it as such is arguing in bad faith. What was said, incase you somehow forgot what you yourself wrote was
Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don’t appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it. Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things. You wrote the whole list of things you think people should do and now you act like “it’s just two simple things” ignoring what you wrote. Hell, I’d think these two message were written by two different people they’re so disconnected.
There isn’t a less complicated answer.
JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
This shouldn’t be a complex answer. The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.” That should be the answer. Not a list of magical rules every man has to follow just to make sure they get treated like a human.
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it.
Oh no! Society is judging you unfairly because of your outward appearance? Gee, that almost sounds like the flip side of what the women are complaining about. Sucks, don’t it?
The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.” That should be the answer.
That’s not going to work until everybody does it, which means the real answer is “actively work to stop other people from treating people like shit,” and even more specifically, “understand who the aggressors and victims are so you don’t make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves.”
You sound mad at me for saying that I should be treated fairly. Women also deal with it yes. But I don’t get why you feel the need to attack me for bringing it up. I’m sure you get upset if someone attacked a woman for being asked to be treated fairly.
You seem very angry at the world to the point where you are attacking people who want to be your allies and want the same thing. You even say “don’t make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves” yet here you are with a sarcastic “oh no” and attacking me for literally just saying I want to be treated like a human. The hypocrisy is wild…
You sound mad at me for saying that I should be treated fairly. Women also deal with it yes. But I don’t get why you feel the need to attack me for bringing it up. I’m sure you get upset if someone attacked a woman for being asked to be treated fairly.
“Men need to get treated fairly too” is the gender equivalent of “white lives matter.” It’s tone-deaf at best, and more likely deliberately dishonest punching down. Just because a statement is true when considered alone, that doesn’t mean the purpose of saying it can’t be in bad faith when considering context. And that’s exactly what’s happening here.
You aren’t the victim here, and you know it. How do I know you know it? Because I’m also a man and I know I’m not the victim here either. As a man, I can authoritatively say that men are getting exactly the treatment we deserve. If we don’t like it, it’s on us to change our collective behavior. Period.
Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
Ah yes, the magical right amount of: a second or two
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it.
Good news, you can! That follows the recommendation to not initiate a conversation. Hell, if they happen to start one you aren’t obligated to participate!
Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things.
No, I’m speaking from experience.
JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
lol
The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.”
What do you mean by not treating people like shit? Please explain without any examples, because that would make it complicated and dishonest.
Lol so much bs in a single response without saying a damn thing. About what I expected. You even laughed at your own nonsense, so at least there’s that I guess.
It’s clear you’re not interested in a convo. Just misrepresenting things said over and over while not contributing to the conversation at all. I’m sure you have lots of experience being treated like a creep with that mindset, which makes this list make a lot of sense.
If you’re being treated like an animal in every encounter you have, that’s probably a you issue. This advice will not help if no matter what you do or where you find yourself people perceive you as a non-human animal.
If for some reason you are purposefully exaggerating, and know that this only really applies in specific instances, then it probably will still not help you because I’m not sure someone legitimately concerned about others would exaggerate in this situation.
The reality is that no one is asking you to do anything. Women don’t owe you anything and if you don’t like the way they treat you and if you’re unwilling to make yourself seem like less of a threat then feel free to be upset at men that have put us all in this position. Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort. If you want to feel more comfortable around them you might need to put in the work to make yourself comfortable to be around.
The fact that I have to go out of my way to make myself seem less like a threat, simply because of who I am, so that I’m treated like a human. There is this idea that you should be able to be yourself and not apologize for it. But I have to run through situations and make sure I do things, but not too much. I can’t just keep to myself without being treated like I’m some threat. It’s insulting and it errodes empathy.
Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort.
Who the fuck is saying this? I’m asking to be treated like a person and not a predator simply because of my gender. I thought treating people poorly based solely on their gender was wrong. Guess that only goes one way.
What are women doing to make me feel like they won’t attack me? Do they have to disprove stereotypes just to be treated like a person? No. I have to make sure I make women feel comfortable and do this checklist of things just to be treated normally? I can’t just keep to myself?
Why can’t we just treat people like people and not judge an entire gender, on either side, with one sweeping stroke.
You don’t “have to” do anything. If you want to be treated in a specific way, you may have to act a specific way. That’s how society is. How are you not being treated like a human? You’re being treated the way that person treats all men. You’re not being targeted specifically. That IS how they treat humans. In what direction do you think it erodes empathy? Is it eroding your empathy towards women?
I’m saying it. Right now. If a woman feels safer pretending to be on the phone with a friend if she finds herself alone with someone she feels threatened by then she should do so without guilt. That goes regardless of sex or gender or any characteristic of either party.
Women have to do a lot every day to be viewed as equal or more than their gender. Women are groped in stores and on transit and in public places. They are made to feel unsafe and disrespected by a large portion of society. Why can’t they just be themselves? Why can’t they just act normally?
It’s very easy for men to say “why can’t we treat everyone like equals” when women are still struggling for equality. Trust me, that’s what we want, but we’re not there yet, and you focusing on how a subset of women treat men in specific circumstances is part of the problem. Women would gladly trade, so our main concern could be that men crossed to the far side of the street instead of is this guy just waiting for the right moment. It’s not a fun or healthy way to live. It seems like you’re right that empathy is eroding, because if I was a guy I’d be able to recognize that it’s not personal and she’s doing it for her safety.
I think that in this thread there is a lot of talking over people. It seems like you are coming from the empathy angle and trying to offer the most realistic solution, but a lot of the commentors aren’t talking about the actual solution. A lot of them are simply stating “i should not have to ensure i do not look like a threat” in a vacuum, which is true. They’re not arguing against the idea that “women should not have to worry about men”, they’re simply idealizing. Unfortunately things become more complicated when trying to blend those ideas.
So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can’t just exist and go about my life? I mean, I don’t see this helping the problem.
That’s what women apparently have to do to avoid being treated like meat. They can’t “just exist and go about [their lives],” so why do you think you should be entitled to?
If you don’t like it, help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood.
Who says they can’t? They should be able to.
Here’s a crazy idea, instead of making men suffer because women suffer, we just stop.
Well your last sentence really shows you don’t care. Let’s see how this works. If you don’t like women getting treated like meat help fix the root of the problem instead of bitching about your false victimhood. Am I doing it right? It’s this how we help each other fix problems?
Of course! Women, if a strange man approaches you just say “no thank you.” Legally they cannot assault you, and it is socially unacceptable for them to do so.
Problem solved!
Okay, so how are you, personally gonna make people stop?
Or are you just going to do nothing (except attack the “uppity” women who are complaining about it) and consider it to be not your problem? 'Cause the result of that is women continuing to suffer while men enjoy privilege. It sure sounds like that’s what you actually want.
Assuming you understand that “the root of the problem” is male aggression, yes! As I wrote a minute ago in another comment:
If us non-sexist/predatory men don’t want to be lumped in with the assholes, it’s our obligation to actively ally with women to stop the assholes. It doesn’t fucking matter if it’s “fair” or not; that’s just how the world works.
Ok.
Never once did I do this. I’ve been saying, over and over, that everyone should be treated like a human. All I can do is be the change I want to see.
You then just go on to blame men for everything. Men are the problem. Women being treated poorly, men’s fault. Men being treated poorly, men’s fault.
So women never do anything wrong and it’s all men’s fault. And I need to magically fix the whole problem or shut up and deal with being treated poorly.
You are a toxic person. You are dishonest, putting words in my mouth. You are the reason why people don’t take feminism seriously. You’re more interested in bashing men than trying to solve anything.
I’m done. I’m not going to waste my time without someone who can’t have a conversation without sarcastic attacks and lying about my actions and stances. Get blocked troll.
Take a moment and think about the consequences here for women vs the consequences for men.
Women: at risk of sexual assault in a society that down plays it, victim blames, and often fails to bring justice to the purpitrator.
Men: at risk of women giving them dirty looks.
This is like complaining about needing to ask for someone to unlock something for you because “I’m not going to steal anything, why are you treating me like a criminal?”
No, that’s not all you can do. Namely, you can quit pretending that the bad behavior of other men isn’t your problem if you don’t want to be lumped in with them.
Yeah, that’s because it unironically is. Because in a male-dominated society men have the power and women don’t. What part of privilege and power dynamics do you not understand?
You’re the toxic one here. You’re trying to DARVO the situation to make men the victims, but we’re just not.
LOL, you’re just whining because you can’t deal with having your privilege challenged.
Is anyone treating you like an animal in real life, or are you taking online comments that are generalizations about some common behaviors personally?
A person proposed an issue, on how they’re treated and not knowing what to do. Your response was a check list to go through and things you have to do, but but too much, and don’t ignore certain people. Your solution to the problem is unreasonable, that’s what I’m saying.
I don’t understand what’s so hard to follow.
Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?
Is being aware that initiating or dragging out conversations with women you don’t know often comes across as intimidating too difficult to understand?
The last two sentences is a summary and all that someone needs to remember, but would be too vague without the previous context. There isn’t a less complicated answer.
Is being honest too difficult? There is no room to have a conversation here with how you’re presenting things. This isn’t just “don’t stare” and you presenting it as such is arguing in bad faith. What was said, incase you somehow forgot what you yourself wrote was
Man, seems like it’s more than just not staring to me. You actually call out " don’t try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone" which is the opposite of staring. So you need to look at them, but not too much, just the magical right amount that you should know.
Nah, but I should be able to just keep to myself and not have a conversation without being treated like a predator for it. Again, you’re being extremely dishonest in how you frame things. You wrote the whole list of things you think people should do and now you act like “it’s just two simple things” ignoring what you wrote. Hell, I’d think these two message were written by two different people they’re so disconnected.
JFC. You waffle so often I don’t think you even know what you mean. " Is paying attention to whether you are staring too difficult?" also “it’s a complicated answer.” So why did you frame it like it was just two simple things when you know it’s a complex answer? Because you’re being dishonest.
This shouldn’t be a complex answer. The answer should be “don’t treat people like shit without knowing them.” That should be the answer. Not a list of magical rules every man has to follow just to make sure they get treated like a human.
Oh no! Society is judging you unfairly because of your outward appearance? Gee, that almost sounds like the flip side of what the women are complaining about. Sucks, don’t it?
That’s not going to work until everybody does it, which means the real answer is “actively work to stop other people from treating people like shit,” and even more specifically, “understand who the aggressors and victims are so you don’t make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves.”
You sound mad at me for saying that I should be treated fairly. Women also deal with it yes. But I don’t get why you feel the need to attack me for bringing it up. I’m sure you get upset if someone attacked a woman for being asked to be treated fairly.
You seem very angry at the world to the point where you are attacking people who want to be your allies and want the same thing. You even say “don’t make the problem worse by attacking people who are just trying to defend themselves” yet here you are with a sarcastic “oh no” and attacking me for literally just saying I want to be treated like a human. The hypocrisy is wild…
“Men need to get treated fairly too” is the gender equivalent of “white lives matter.” It’s tone-deaf at best, and more likely deliberately dishonest punching down. Just because a statement is true when considered alone, that doesn’t mean the purpose of saying it can’t be in bad faith when considering context. And that’s exactly what’s happening here.
You aren’t the victim here, and you know it. How do I know you know it? Because I’m also a man and I know I’m not the victim here either. As a man, I can authoritatively say that men are getting exactly the treatment we deserve. If we don’t like it, it’s on us to change our collective behavior. Period.
Ah yes, the magical right amount of: a second or two
Good news, you can! That follows the recommendation to not initiate a conversation. Hell, if they happen to start one you aren’t obligated to participate!
No, I’m speaking from experience.
lol
What do you mean by not treating people like shit? Please explain without any examples, because that would make it complicated and dishonest.
Lol so much bs in a single response without saying a damn thing. About what I expected. You even laughed at your own nonsense, so at least there’s that I guess.
It’s clear you’re not interested in a convo. Just misrepresenting things said over and over while not contributing to the conversation at all. I’m sure you have lots of experience being treated like a creep with that mindset, which makes this list make a lot of sense.
If you’re being treated like an animal in every encounter you have, that’s probably a you issue. This advice will not help if no matter what you do or where you find yourself people perceive you as a non-human animal.
If for some reason you are purposefully exaggerating, and know that this only really applies in specific instances, then it probably will still not help you because I’m not sure someone legitimately concerned about others would exaggerate in this situation.
The reality is that no one is asking you to do anything. Women don’t owe you anything and if you don’t like the way they treat you and if you’re unwilling to make yourself seem like less of a threat then feel free to be upset at men that have put us all in this position. Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort. If you want to feel more comfortable around them you might need to put in the work to make yourself comfortable to be around.
This is missing the entire point.
The fact that I have to go out of my way to make myself seem less like a threat, simply because of who I am, so that I’m treated like a human. There is this idea that you should be able to be yourself and not apologize for it. But I have to run through situations and make sure I do things, but not too much. I can’t just keep to myself without being treated like I’m some threat. It’s insulting and it errodes empathy.
Who the fuck is saying this? I’m asking to be treated like a person and not a predator simply because of my gender. I thought treating people poorly based solely on their gender was wrong. Guess that only goes one way.
What are women doing to make me feel like they won’t attack me? Do they have to disprove stereotypes just to be treated like a person? No. I have to make sure I make women feel comfortable and do this checklist of things just to be treated normally? I can’t just keep to myself?
Why can’t we just treat people like people and not judge an entire gender, on either side, with one sweeping stroke.
You don’t “have to” do anything. If you want to be treated in a specific way, you may have to act a specific way. That’s how society is. How are you not being treated like a human? You’re being treated the way that person treats all men. You’re not being targeted specifically. That IS how they treat humans. In what direction do you think it erodes empathy? Is it eroding your empathy towards women?
I’m saying it. Right now. If a woman feels safer pretending to be on the phone with a friend if she finds herself alone with someone she feels threatened by then she should do so without guilt. That goes regardless of sex or gender or any characteristic of either party.
Women have to do a lot every day to be viewed as equal or more than their gender. Women are groped in stores and on transit and in public places. They are made to feel unsafe and disrespected by a large portion of society. Why can’t they just be themselves? Why can’t they just act normally?
It’s very easy for men to say “why can’t we treat everyone like equals” when women are still struggling for equality. Trust me, that’s what we want, but we’re not there yet, and you focusing on how a subset of women treat men in specific circumstances is part of the problem. Women would gladly trade, so our main concern could be that men crossed to the far side of the street instead of is this guy just waiting for the right moment. It’s not a fun or healthy way to live. It seems like you’re right that empathy is eroding, because if I was a guy I’d be able to recognize that it’s not personal and she’s doing it for her safety.
I think that in this thread there is a lot of talking over people. It seems like you are coming from the empathy angle and trying to offer the most realistic solution, but a lot of the commentors aren’t talking about the actual solution. A lot of them are simply stating “i should not have to ensure i do not look like a threat” in a vacuum, which is true. They’re not arguing against the idea that “women should not have to worry about men”, they’re simply idealizing. Unfortunately things become more complicated when trying to blend those ideas.
K