LOL “controversial salute”
Looked pretty fucking clear to me.
In general the use of “controversial” in modern English triggers my autistic anxiety.
Elon’s wide gesture was not only not controversial, it was also very expressive.
Don’t worry, reddit will soon prohibit blocking twitter
Nazi salute. Not controversial salute. Nazi salute.
It happens for medias to misspeak, like not noticing a genocide and just reporting on “an explosion in Gaza”. /s
Controversial nazi salute does seem to describe the situation most accurately, it’s just the fact that it’s controversial is bonkers.
It’s controversial like nude art. People aren’t comfortable with their sexuality and are disturbed by nudity.
In that case, people aren’t comfortable to admit that they are nazis.
Akshhhally a lot of what’s now associated just with Nazis was a typical “worker party” symbols set in 20s.
Torches - because workers would assemble outside of their work hours, and it would be dark, it’s not your soy modernity with labor protections.
This particular thing called “Roman salute” - apparently wasn’t too popular outside of Nazis and Italian fascists, but there are archive photos of Communists in Russia in early 20s using that.
The raised fist symbol - well, everybody used it, and again, Nazis too.
Hammer and sickle - that one was in symbolic of Dolfuss’ Austria, and it’s not a coincidence, it was there because of socdems.
OK, all that isn’t necessary. It’s clear what gesture Elon intended. It may not be entirely clear what he meant, I think this is not Nazi endorsement, but rather a “f-ck you” to all parties he dislikes, who also happen to be keen on bringing up Nazis. But that wouldn’t be controversial too, just weird for a grown up man.
Bruh
Everything I said is true. And I think it’s more interesting for intelligent people to look at the world through others’ eyes, not to see confirmation from their herd.
Torches are still used by ARF (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) at its big events.
The wide gesture - I will admit I’m not keeping a file of links for everything, but I have seen such photos of early “pioneers” (like scouts) in USSR and ever Red Army men. I think you won’t have to look for too long. Again, these were all early things.
“True” doesn’t equal the whole truth.
Yes, the NSDAP, donning the disguise of a Worker’s Party, adopted a lot of worker movement symbology, and through their prominence has given it awful connotations. Unsurprisingly, the modern ideological descendants have taken up many of those same symbols.
Yes, other groups use some of those symbols, or some of the other symbols you mentioned. That doesn’t mean the symbols are now innocuous. It just means context matters. A single element (like the torches) in a different context (like an Armenian group) doesn’t make them Nazis. A hooked cross in the context of Hinduism might mean luck instead.
And in the context of people endorsing Neo-Nazi bullshit, the Nazi salute is very much unmistakable as that.
“True” doesn’t equal the whole truth.
In this case it does.
Yes, the NSDAP, donning the disguise of a Worker’s Party, adopted a lot of worker movement symbology, and through their prominence has given it awful connotations. Unsurprisingly, the modern ideological descendants have taken up many of those same symbols.
I agree it was a disguise, but I should note that it also adopted a lot of such parties’ members and activists.
In any case - evil usually doesn’t call itself evil. The very idea that there’s some new “great evil” waiting to come to the world is wrong. And there were and are a myriad of “small evils” before 1945, since 1945, now and forever, which some very stupid people consider not worthy of fighting because of looking for where the “great evil” will make its comeback. It won’t.
If one can’t fight those small evils around them, one definitely can’t hope to be useful against something greater anyway.
Ideological descendants I know about are all minor parties. The big ones people accuse of that simply have no clear ideology, which means fascist stuff is very convenient to give them some color. But nothing more.
And in the context of people endorsing Neo-Nazi bullshit, the Nazi salute is very much unmistakable as that.
Yes, only that’s not what I am answering. Just that the gesture’s meaning is not definitively only Nazi.
That’s the problem with online communities, everyone is trying to appear smart and mysterious by talking in hints and allegories and dog whistles and fuzzy unfinished thoughts, and also just pretending to catch and guess what others think from fundamentally insufficient amount of information.
Things should be more literal and ordered. Lucian’s dialogues are good as an example of this, I don’t know if that’s how many people really discussed reality in his time, but if really so, then it was a healthier society.
In this case it does.
In this case we’re talking about Elmo displaying what is, in the context of his whole public presentation, clearly intended as a Nazi salute. So no, truthfully stating that other groups have used that salute too isn’t the whole truth because it ignores the context of conversation.
Yes, only that’s not what I am answering.
Yeah, but that wasn’t originally the conversation you tacked on to.
Just that the gesture’s meaning is not definitively only Nazi.
Sure, but why point that out, when it’s not relevant to the conversation of Elmo being a Neo-Nazi? Maybe this helps to consider the optics of your comment:
Media: “Controversial” salute
Comment: Not controversial, just Nazi
You: Well, there are other meanings for the gestureThat sounds a whole lot like the apologism going around trying to paint Elmo as misunderstood.
catch and guess what others think from fundamentally insufficient amount of information.
That’s communication in general. We use shorthands so we don’t always have to elaborate, but a lot of things pick up different meanings in different contexts.
And in the specific context - because, again, the initial comment you responded to was specific to this specific display of this specific gesture - Elon has displayed a lot of Neo-Nazi behaviour. That doesn’t mean he has to be a Neo-Nazi (you’re right, see can’t know for sure what he thinks) but that he’s courting their favour (because we can see what he does). That makes it rather reasonable to assume that a known Neo-Nazi-courter producing something looking like an edgy teenager’s imitation of Hitler’s salute is indeed performing a Nazi salute.
No matter what else the gesture can mean, it’s clear what this instance is intended to signal.
The original conversation can be continued in any way. Saying someone is diverting from it is just bullshit, sadly too common. People try to decide for others what the conversation is about and where it doesn’t go, while everything is interconnected and it’s not their place.
You’ve missed one little nuance, a Nazi salute (suppose we’re clear that it’s what the gesture meant) can be used to, #1, attract those sympathetic to Nazis in symbols, #2, insult those strongly against Nazis in symbols, #3, attract those against people from group #2, and one can go on. I think it’s #3 much more than #1, and #1 and #3 are not the same.
That’s what I had to say on the subject, but was in a bad condition to think and say it as clearly as now.
“controversial salute” is certainly one way to phrase a Nazi salute.
I can’t believe we’re downplaying Nazi salutes. If this were in a political satire film 15 years ago it’d be dismissed as being too absurd.
The media already goosestepping to the new regime.
Super pumped for 4 years (good lord please let it only be 4) of chickenshit euphemisms
Oh no, we were promised no more votes would be needed after 4 years. We’ll likely see Don Jr. in a few though after the heart attack…
It’s very disturbing because it’s creeping acceptance by massaging the message over time.
First a billionaire makes the salute
Then you get everyone to debate it
Then everyone associates it less and less to nazism
Then it’s just a gesture billionaires do
Then it’s just a gesture
Then it becomes more common
Then it becomes normal
I mean, it’s Forbes. It’s essentially one of the primary mouthpieces of this new-age Business Plot we’re living through. I’m unsurprised they’re sanewashing this.
Its forbes. A rag I wouldn’t wipe my ass with it.
They’ve made such a hard right turn it’s insane. It’s not just “super fiscally conservative ideals” but straight up propaganda at this point
Playing devil’s advocate here.
I don’t think he meant it as “let’s go round up the Jews age conquer Europe” (or Canada or whatever). He’s very likely on the autism spectrum and likely thought it was funny and just wanted to see how the mass media would react. He acts like a child in so many other contexts (dancing robots at the Tesla event? Seriously?), why not here?
That doesn’t make it okay, and it’s certainly inappropriate given the event, but it also doesn’t make him a Nazi.
No, but coupled with the other people he’s teaming up with, and the other things he’s done, it’s a pretty sure bet he’s a nazi and meant it as such. Autism is not an excuse, and nazi salutes are not even in the same ballpark as dancing fucking robots! How do you even manage to equate the two???
Autism is not an excuse
I never said it was.
Autism makes it more difficult to read social norms, and if you mix that with childishness and enough money to not care what others think (and maybe some drugs as well), you get Elon.
I explicitly said it doesn’t make it okay, I said it doesn’t imply anything about his personal political views.
How do you even manage to equate the two???
They’re both childish. There’s really not more to it.
Not to criticize you personally for playing devils advocate but fuck this weak ass justification.
This guy is the richest person in the world and he didn’t become that by being some disadvantaged individual who doesn’t understand what he’s doing at times. He knew full well what he was doing. He was grinning the whole fucking time and acts like he knows he’s untouchable.
I agree that I don’t think he wants to ‘round up Jews and exterminate them,’ but I do think he wanted to empower the nut jobs that do believe in that (not just Jews but every Republican enemy) while also drumming up controversy to get everyone talking about him like he’s always done in the past. He thinks this is all a game with few stakes for himself.
He thinks this is all a game with few stakes for himself.
Exactly. None of what you said paints him as a Nazi, he wanted to get closer to powerful people, and Trump seemed like his ticket in. He won’t be able to run for President himself, but he can get close to a sitting President. If the tables were turned and he saw an opportunity on the left, he would’ve courted Harris or Biden or whatever (but neither were the right fit).
I honestly don’t know what Elon’s political views are, he mostly seems to be interested in being part of technical progression (hence Tesla, Hyperloop, and SpaceX). He seems similar to Trump in wanting to leave a legacy, and latching on to Trump seems like his attempt to do that. Buying Twitter also became part of that as well.
Maybe he’s a Nazi, idk. My point is that this event doesn’t prove anything other than that he’s a childish attention whore.
Trump wants to leave a legacy???
Yeah, he wants to be remembered. That’s pretty much what all narcissists want. Basically, he wants to be the one that made America even more wealthy or whatever.
Doesn’t seem like he cares about the country at all, only himself.
I never said he did. His motivations are his name being remembered. That’s it. So he needs to make a big impact, whether good or bad. That’s a legacy.
Look up his family history. His grandpa was a technocrat and raved about Orania. He’s a product of his upbringing. His Dad ran emerald mines during Apartheid. Racism is taught. He’s a damn nazi.
He’s a product of his upbringing.
Are you a product of your upbringing?
My parents were pretty conservative, I’m religious and my religion leans very conservative, and I grew up in a pretty conservative part of a liberal state (lots of, “those libs are holding us back”). You’d assume I’d be very conservative, no? I was as a kid, but once I moved to a conservative state, I saw how both major parties were full of nonsense and found a home with libertarianism (not the Libertarian Party, they’re an embarrassment). I’m a bit further left on many social issues than most Democrats, and I take a bit from both parties on fiscal issues. Most of my neighbors are conservative, most my coworkers are progressive, I don’t have a bunch of libertarian friends or anything, and I just don’t talk about politics much.
My cousin married a white South African and I have a white South African coworker, and both are quite liberal despite having a similar upbringing as Musk (not rich, but certainly benefitted from apartheid) and growing up in my very red state.
I don’t think anyone is “a product of their upbringing.” If Elon is a Nazi, that’s because of choices he made, not his parents. If we consider the totality of the circumstances, I don’t think Elon making a brief, Nazi-looking salute saying “my heart goes out to you” is the smoking gun people claim it is, I think it’s much more likely that it’s him looking for attention. He knew the mass media was going to make a spectacle of him regardless like they always do, so he decided to give them something to talk about.
If Elon or anyone is going to actually do Nazi stuff and mean it, it’ll be behind closed doors, not on a nationally televised Inauguration Day event.
You’re still a product of your upbringing. I was Conservative, like my whole damn family. I in recent years woke up. I never did hateful acts, but I had the thoughts. Sometimes I wonder if people can see the filth on me, see that I made racist jokes, etc. I’m teaching my child differently. She can go to church or synagogues, or whatever. I’ve told her we’ll go if she wants to. But she also knows how I feel about my days in church, and she remembers the days when she was younger and what she overheard. She respects religion, but hasn’t shown any inclination towards it. (Baptist churches, btw, in a Bible belt area, where people didn’t fight much about desegregation only since extreme minority until the 90s.)
To some extent, sure. My point is that we all make decisions at some point where we become independent of our parents. We may reach similar conclusions, but we are responsible for the ideologies we choose to align ourselves with.
If Musk is a Nazi, it’s because of choices he made more than how he was raised. He bears that responsibility.
“I dont think he meant to shoot anyone he just walked up to a cop and pointed a gun at them, he likely thought it was funny and wanted to see how the cop would react”
That’s… quite a bit more extreme than what I was talking about. On the other hand, people have gotten shot by police for much less (even just verbally standing up for their rights), so maybe you have a point.
Elon isn’t very classy, but I honestly don’t think he’s a Nazi.
My point was you can misguidedly perform and action and it be judged unfavorably and considered a bad idea by the population at large.
“Controversial salute” is interesting wording. They’re clearly identifying it as the Nazi salute, but aren’t outright saying it.
I’m surprised Reddit allowed anyone to ban X links since both sites are run by soulless corporate monsters
Why would Reddit care if subs disallowed links that would take their users off platform?
It might upset copresident Elon
I’m shocked that liar spez has any morale compass at this point. It is bizarre.
It’s an easy way for him to act like they let the subs run independently without it hurting their core business model.
That sounds a lot like when they did the reddit mural wall right after all this Spez shit started. It gave everyone an opportunity to scribble “fuck Spez” while still using the app and engaging with the site and probably making him even more money… The whole thing is just depressing that’s why I try not to think about reddit anymore lol
I’m sure once the press coverage starts to take hold and their venture capitalist overlords realize what’s going on, they will crack down on the mods hard. Just like they did back in June/July of 2023. Little piggy boy will punish any rebellious mods and then grovel in mortification to his corporate masters.
Banned on r/NFL actually, which is shocking. That sub relies so heavily on Twitter news
Steve is an Elon wannabe, he will just replace those mods and it’ll be business as usual.
Seen a bunch of them blocking links to any websites that require a login. Good for them.
They should block themselves because reddit blocks non-logged users on some networks or VPNs.
I agree. Trump should ban Twitter, Reddit, Discord, GitHub and Meta sites. 👍
Folks better stop sharing them here too
The fact that meta is also banned makes me think a huge part of this is just getting people onto Bluesky.
I get Zuckerberg is an asshole, but Instagram is the least toxic platform for me. That’s because Instagram has keyword and subject filtering.
instagram reels is wild man
My Instagram reels are the most tame shit ever. You gotta redo your filters.
If not for this, they’d certainly impose the block with another excuse. They just don’t like Elon.
No, we the people just won’t tolerate nazi filth like you and your ketamine addicted fuhrer.
