As negotiations get underway at COP28, we compiled a list of the leading research documenting the connection between meat and greenhouse gas emissions.
As someone who makes delicious plant based foods from inexpensive and available ingredients, I take a lot of issue with the idea that plant based food is “shit”.
Everyone knows that vegan who ended up in the hospital from malnutrition. In my case, 2 of “that vegan” were family members, and one was a friend. I’ll be the first to admit that we non-vegans have to stop and remember that just because the unnecessary malnutrition rate is much higher in vegans, that doesn’t mean many of you don’t find ways to eat delicious and healthy.
There’s some delicious vegan foods out there. It just takes a lot more work and can often be more expensive to hit the same tier of deliciousness of (for example) a perfectly cooked steak.
Perhaps you’ll agree, though, that “fake-foods” are terrible? Like, a vegan burger is nothing compared to a nice angus (or venison!) patty with real aged cheddar. Or a carbonara with egg substitute vs the real thing.
I have had some incredible vegan foods (especially Indian or Lebanese) but an Impossible burger belongs in the trash IMO.
That I mean to say is, if someone really wants a Carbonara, there’s nothing that can compare without using egg and some smoked meat. And if their diet has a lot of meals with those flavor profiles, it’s easy for them to see vegan food as problematic. A meat-eater can have all the falafal they want.
There’s some delicious vegan foods out there. It just takes a lot more work and can often be more expensive to hit the same tier of deliciousness of (for example) a perfectly cooked steak.
As someone who grew up eating meat, and still eats meat for various reasons (though I’m trying to cut down), I’m not sure I agree with that statement.
Beef (the most environmentally unfriendly meat) is far and away more expensive than vegan or vegetarian substitute ingredients. Only cheap chicken and turkey grown inhumanely are comparably priced to most vegan sources of protein (Butler soy curls purchased in bulk are extremely affordable, as an example, and much healthier and tasty than the TVP of old).
All meat, at least without any seasoning, I personally find pretty darn bland. A steak with some salt on it does have some flavor, but nothing really worth writing home about (at least to me). The thing that makes a meal good is when meat is used to soak up some other flavor, or incorporated in dish to add texture, or again, to act as a sponge for flavor. I’ve found that same concept to apply to vegan meats, and when used in that way, It’s actually fairly difficult to tell it apart from real meat. Adding a bullion cube of beef or chicken flavor isn’t expensive, and after that’s applied, you’re pretty much at parity with real meat as far as flavor, often for less expense than using real meat.
I will admit this doesn’t apply to more processed meat-substitutes, like impossible meat, which are generally quite expensive. But in general, veggies are pretty cheap compared to meat.
Perhaps you’ll agree, though, that “fake-foods” are terrible? Like, a vegan burger is nothing compared to a nice angus (or venison!) patty with real aged cheddar. Or a carbonara with egg substitute vs the real thing.
As an aspiring vegetarian, I’d agree that real cheese is… Likely not something I could replace right now.
I have had some incredible vegan foods (especially Indian or Lebanese) but an Impossible burger belongs in the trash IMO.
I’d agree with you if you mentioned Beyond Meat, which I found to be… Terrible. It gave me horrible heartburn (the processed oils were likely oxidized inside it), and I’ll never touch it again. BUT, I tried some premade frozen impossible patties from costco, and I couldn’t believe how delicious they were. They didn’t use easily oxidized oils in comparison to Beyond meat, and the flavor and texture were comparable to the finest burgers I’d ever cooked with expensive local ground beef. But that’s just my opinion.
I also tried Impossible chicken nuggets and Trader Joe’s new vegan Fish offering, and both were excellent. I would easily be able to switch to those alternatives and never feel deprived of the real thing.
Adding a bullion cube of beef or chicken flavor isn’t expensive, and after that’s applied, you’re pretty much at parity with real meat as far as flavor, often for less expense than using real meat.
It’s not as bad as that makes it out to be, lol. As far as flavoring these plant-meats, I’m just saying bullion cubes are very effective at imparting a rich meaty flavor (especially if the bullion is high quality).
As someone who grew up eating meat, and still eats meat for various reasons (though I’m trying to cut down), I’m not sure I agree with that statement.
I recently has a $120 filet from a premium steakhouse for a special occasion. I’m sorry, but in my lifetime of being an “try anything” foodie I’ve never tried a meatless dish that comes within $3-40 of creating a food experience worth that much money to me, and that includes some stuff created by amazing Indian or Lebanese chefs (where I got the best meatless food I’ve ever eaten).
And here’s the thing. I can make that filet. If I hit a butcher and get a prime cut of angus filet, toss it on the grill, I can have that $120 filet in front of me. I went through part of a culinary degree, and my wife comes from incredible restauranteurs of two cultures. If I were to dream of coming up with a $120 non-meat meal, it would require such an immense amount of expertise and skill. That $120 filet I could have mostly managed wiith none of the experience I have since picked up.
Beef (the most environmentally unfriendly meat) is far and away more expensive than vegan or vegetarian substitute ingredients
On beef, I lean to the simplicity. You’re right about the price, but a good steak is worth the price in terms of enjoyment. At least to this foodie.
All meat, at least without any seasoning, I personally find pretty darn bland
I wouldn’t call a little salt and pepper complicated. Would you? I wouldn’t ever put more than that on a quality cut of beef. Compare that meat prep with, say, falafel.
A good head-to-head was creating meat toppings and creating veggie toppings. The fanciest meat topping I created was a delicious liver pate. Prep took me about 20 minutes. My wife’s family has a meat-based cheeseball recipe that’s about 30 minutes. Both are amazing. Compare to the excuisite mustardas and chutneys I’ve made, and the effort difference is an order of magnitude. For me, I’m talking hours of work, sauteing each ingredient and letting it cook down carefully to maximize flavor. And the latter start requiring more and more pricy specialized ingredients. Liver for pate is dirt cheap around here, and devilled ham (cheeseball) is pretty cheap, too. My chutney required specific harder-to-find breeds of fruit.
From your explanation of meat, I think it’s clear you’re not a huge fan of meat in general or that you’ve often been stuck with bad cuts of meat. The way you described meat “absorbing other flavors” is the one thing we were taught in culinary school you never do with your protein. In French Style cooking at least, your protein is your star - it’s the most important part of the dish, and it’s the one thing whose flavor should SHINE. Properly cooked duck is perhaps the perfect example of that. Duck L’orange is one of my favorite dishes, but the orange sauce needs to be on it sparingly because the point of the dish is that amazing and irreplacable flavor of Duck. The orange is like a stairway to get the duck from “great” to “life-changing”
My wife puts it this way with scallops (the scallop industry is in our family, sorry). If you want to buy scallops somewhere far from the ocean, you buy fried scallops because the scallop is basically ruined and you’re just trying to get a hint of the flavor you like and drowning it in flavors that are palatable. If you eat a scallop off the boat, you pan-sear it with a pad of butter and some crushed cracker crumbs for about 2 minutes.
BUT, I tried some premade frozen impossible patties from costco, and I couldn’t believe how delicious they were
I didn’t love Impossible. But I like my food elevated. I will agree that Impossible compares favorably to a “Applebees” burger, but I haven’t eaten at Applebees in 5+ years. If I compare it instead to some fresh 80/20 from the butcher, mixed with a little bit of pork, it’s a different world.
I’ll agree the best fake meats can beat the worst real meats. I don’t think that’s a concession for someone who teaches himself to cook things because he thinks good food is worth the effort.
Cool thing is, a meat tax wouldn’t even increase the price of meat if we take away the feed subsidy (which is financed for by what is effectively a VAT on first sale and then remitted to a few large companies).
I’ll admit I’ve never had a single steak that was more than $30 uncooked, I simply do not have the disposable income to justify spending $120 on a single meal, so I’m not really sure what I’m missing out on there.
From your explanation of meat, I think it’s clear you’re not a huge fan of meat in general or that you’ve often been stuck with bad cuts of meat.
I love meat in other contexts, but I’m not super into it on its own if it’s lightly seasoned. I have had steak from a local grass fed farm (Vermont), which, I have to imagine, was a very high quality piece of meat. I consider myself a fairly adept cook, and cooked the meat rare with salt and pepper and a healthy amount of fresh local butter. It was good, but… Overall, I found the complexity of flavor to be lacking, as I do with any lightly seasoned meat. For me, a regular old steak can’t compare with heavily seasoned and flavored meat like BBQ pulled pork. I think we definitely have different preferences in that regard.
I’ll admit I’ve never had a single steak that was more than $30 uncooked, I simply do not have the disposable income to justify spending $120 on a single meal, so I’m not really sure what I’m missing out on there.
Luxury food has a logarithmic value increase. A $120 steak is as much better than a $60 steak as a $60 is than a $30, and so on. Compare the best steak you’ve had (about $30?) to the worst steak you’ve had (about $15?). A $60 is that much better than the $30, so a diminishing return. A $120 steak is that much better than the $60. It’s incredible, but not something you would want to eat every day even if you were wealthy.
I love meat in other contexts, but I’m not super into it on its own if it’s lightly seasoned
That’s understandable. We cannot know how much is simply different tastes or how much is the quality you have never tried.
I have had steak from a local grass fed farm (Vermont), which, I have to imagine, was a very high quality piece of meat
I, too, am from New England. There’s a lot of gamey cattle around in the grass-fed world for some reason. I would wager what you had is better than some, still. Anything is better than frozen stuff that came out of a warehouse.
It was good, but… Overall, I found the complexity of flavor to be lacking, as I do with any lightly seasoned meat
Interesting. You talk about steak the way so many people I know talk about Scotch. An A-B test could perhaps be a world-changer to you. That said, steak flavor is a little simpler in general. Expensive steak is usually more about texture, the balance of umami, and what flavor profile the cut has shining enough that you can tell the cut on taste alone. A good filet mignon has this tendency to melt in your mouth just a bit, like a marshmallow. No fat, no veins, no inconsistency in its silky texture. A good prime rib could be tougher, because there’s that specific flavor you look for in the middle, and that specific marbling on the sides where you get these crunchy bacon-like ends sandwiched between paper-thin layers of fat, so thin as to not be off-putting to eat generously. The people I know who swear by Rib-Eye will drive 100 miles and pay $100 for the top tier rib-eye. I’m not a Rib-Eye guy, so as much as I enjoy it, I can’t speak for it quite so well.
For me, a regular old steak can’t compare with heavily seasoned and flavored meat like BBQ pulled pork
That’s understandable. And I can imagine BBQ Pulled Cauliflour (or whatever) is a closer match to BBQ Pulled Pork than any vegan dish is to the meat dishes I like. My favorite pulled pork is marinated lightly in wine, so you’re still tasting pork first, not some BBQ. We have a local meal in my area called cacoila, and it’s both amazing with the spices supplementing the meat… and dirt cheap.
Anything someone feels forced to eat against their will is “shit”. You’d have every right to call meat shit if someone made it the only food available to you.
Who’s being forced to eat something against their will? People should be able to make the choice to eat what they want based on all the information available. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation about animal agriculture so many people don’t have all the info.
A lot of the vegans here are pushing for the end of all meat-eating, so a lot of the non-vegans here (like the guy you responded to about “eating that shit”) feel like “nobody should be eating meat anymore” means “you shouldn’t eat meat anymore”.
Whether “you” is part of “nobody” is a challenging question. I’ve met plenty of vegans who push for meat bans, and plenty of vegans who otherwise somehow think “since veg tastes good and the only people who eat meat do so feeling guilty, we’ll eventually all be vegan anyway”. The former are a threat (sorry, they are), and the latter are not worth treating like one.
Many of the rest are trying to coerce people into doing things. From a legal/ethical point of view, people typically consider that a form of a forcing.
And I can feel or not feel however I want, but the fact that you decided to bring up my feelings doesn’t change facts.
Most importantly, I have clearly explained why the original comment was justified in using the word “shit” and a vegan would be justified in using the word “shit”. Heaven forbid vegans are on the same plane of existence as we mere mortals. No, you’re right. Vegans can use cuss words, but we non-vegans must bow and say “I understand that only vegetables taste good and that meat is horrible, but I eat meat because I like to feel guilty and want to burn in hell. Please judge me”
Or maybe the top comment really was justified in using the word “shit”. Please leave your reddit at the door. You’ll track in mud.
You’re right that it’s not. I’m not sure how I feel on food bans, personally. Probably very negative.
how are you able to survive while laws and social norms stop you eating absolutely anything?
I’m not sure what you’re asking here. Social norms don’t stop anything except someone’s consented will. My wife won’t eat rabbit, but it has nothing to do with being forced against it.
I’ve never tried horse meat. I’ve heard bad things about it being incredibly muscly and gamey, as well as expensive. Are there any upsides for me to consider it?
Interesting! I recently had gator jerky I enjoyed. I’m not one of those “off-put” by what animal meat comes from. But I often want to know why I should try it. As you can see in my other replies, I’m a foodie and I like to truly understand what goes into the food I consume both literally and figuratively. To the extent I learned how to distill my own whiskey when I learned it was legal/decriminalized where I live.
As someone who makes delicious plant based foods from inexpensive and available ingredients, I take a lot of issue with the idea that plant based food is “shit”.
rite? I take pride in my vegan food, and my non-vegan friends and family always ask me to bring entrées, treats and baked goods whenever I visit.
I eat GOOD, and if you think the contrary about vegans as a whole then that’s your own limited, small, sheltered little view.
Everyone knows that vegan who ended up in the hospital from malnutrition. In my case, 2 of “that vegan” were family members, and one was a friend. I’ll be the first to admit that we non-vegans have to stop and remember that just because the unnecessary malnutrition rate is much higher in vegans, that doesn’t mean many of you don’t find ways to eat delicious and healthy.
There’s some delicious vegan foods out there. It just takes a lot more work and can often be more expensive to hit the same tier of deliciousness of (for example) a perfectly cooked steak.
Perhaps you’ll agree, though, that “fake-foods” are terrible? Like, a vegan burger is nothing compared to a nice angus (or venison!) patty with real aged cheddar. Or a carbonara with egg substitute vs the real thing.
I have had some incredible vegan foods (especially Indian or Lebanese) but an Impossible burger belongs in the trash IMO.
That I mean to say is, if someone really wants a Carbonara, there’s nothing that can compare without using egg and some smoked meat. And if their diet has a lot of meals with those flavor profiles, it’s easy for them to see vegan food as problematic. A meat-eater can have all the falafal they want.
As someone who grew up eating meat, and still eats meat for various reasons (though I’m trying to cut down), I’m not sure I agree with that statement.
Beef (the most environmentally unfriendly meat) is far and away more expensive than vegan or vegetarian substitute ingredients. Only cheap chicken and turkey grown inhumanely are comparably priced to most vegan sources of protein (Butler soy curls purchased in bulk are extremely affordable, as an example, and much healthier and tasty than the TVP of old).
All meat, at least without any seasoning, I personally find pretty darn bland. A steak with some salt on it does have some flavor, but nothing really worth writing home about (at least to me). The thing that makes a meal good is when meat is used to soak up some other flavor, or incorporated in dish to add texture, or again, to act as a sponge for flavor. I’ve found that same concept to apply to vegan meats, and when used in that way, It’s actually fairly difficult to tell it apart from real meat. Adding a bullion cube of beef or chicken flavor isn’t expensive, and after that’s applied, you’re pretty much at parity with real meat as far as flavor, often for less expense than using real meat.
I will admit this doesn’t apply to more processed meat-substitutes, like impossible meat, which are generally quite expensive. But in general, veggies are pretty cheap compared to meat.
As an aspiring vegetarian, I’d agree that real cheese is… Likely not something I could replace right now.
I’d agree with you if you mentioned Beyond Meat, which I found to be… Terrible. It gave me horrible heartburn (the processed oils were likely oxidized inside it), and I’ll never touch it again. BUT, I tried some premade frozen impossible patties from costco, and I couldn’t believe how delicious they were. They didn’t use easily oxidized oils in comparison to Beyond meat, and the flavor and texture were comparable to the finest burgers I’d ever cooked with expensive local ground beef. But that’s just my opinion.
I also tried Impossible chicken nuggets and Trader Joe’s new vegan Fish offering, and both were excellent. I would easily be able to switch to those alternatives and never feel deprived of the real thing.
A real foodie eh?
It’s not as bad as that makes it out to be, lol. As far as flavoring these plant-meats, I’m just saying bullion cubes are very effective at imparting a rich meaty flavor (especially if the bullion is high quality).
I recently has a $120 filet from a premium steakhouse for a special occasion. I’m sorry, but in my lifetime of being an “try anything” foodie I’ve never tried a meatless dish that comes within $3-40 of creating a food experience worth that much money to me, and that includes some stuff created by amazing Indian or Lebanese chefs (where I got the best meatless food I’ve ever eaten).
And here’s the thing. I can make that filet. If I hit a butcher and get a prime cut of angus filet, toss it on the grill, I can have that $120 filet in front of me. I went through part of a culinary degree, and my wife comes from incredible restauranteurs of two cultures. If I were to dream of coming up with a $120 non-meat meal, it would require such an immense amount of expertise and skill. That $120 filet I could have mostly managed wiith none of the experience I have since picked up.
On beef, I lean to the simplicity. You’re right about the price, but a good steak is worth the price in terms of enjoyment. At least to this foodie.
I wouldn’t call a little salt and pepper complicated. Would you? I wouldn’t ever put more than that on a quality cut of beef. Compare that meat prep with, say, falafel.
A good head-to-head was creating meat toppings and creating veggie toppings. The fanciest meat topping I created was a delicious liver pate. Prep took me about 20 minutes. My wife’s family has a meat-based cheeseball recipe that’s about 30 minutes. Both are amazing. Compare to the excuisite mustardas and chutneys I’ve made, and the effort difference is an order of magnitude. For me, I’m talking hours of work, sauteing each ingredient and letting it cook down carefully to maximize flavor. And the latter start requiring more and more pricy specialized ingredients. Liver for pate is dirt cheap around here, and devilled ham (cheeseball) is pretty cheap, too. My chutney required specific harder-to-find breeds of fruit.
From your explanation of meat, I think it’s clear you’re not a huge fan of meat in general or that you’ve often been stuck with bad cuts of meat. The way you described meat “absorbing other flavors” is the one thing we were taught in culinary school you never do with your protein. In French Style cooking at least, your protein is your star - it’s the most important part of the dish, and it’s the one thing whose flavor should SHINE. Properly cooked duck is perhaps the perfect example of that. Duck L’orange is one of my favorite dishes, but the orange sauce needs to be on it sparingly because the point of the dish is that amazing and irreplacable flavor of Duck. The orange is like a stairway to get the duck from “great” to “life-changing”
My wife puts it this way with scallops (the scallop industry is in our family, sorry). If you want to buy scallops somewhere far from the ocean, you buy fried scallops because the scallop is basically ruined and you’re just trying to get a hint of the flavor you like and drowning it in flavors that are palatable. If you eat a scallop off the boat, you pan-sear it with a pad of butter and some crushed cracker crumbs for about 2 minutes.
I didn’t love Impossible. But I like my food elevated. I will agree that Impossible compares favorably to a “Applebees” burger, but I haven’t eaten at Applebees in 5+ years. If I compare it instead to some fresh 80/20 from the butcher, mixed with a little bit of pork, it’s a different world.
I’ll agree the best fake meats can beat the worst real meats. I don’t think that’s a concession for someone who teaches himself to cook things because he thinks good food is worth the effort.
Huh. We really do need a meat tax.
Cool thing is, a meat tax wouldn’t even increase the price of meat if we take away the feed subsidy (which is financed for by what is effectively a VAT on first sale and then remitted to a few large companies).
I’ll admit I’ve never had a single steak that was more than $30 uncooked, I simply do not have the disposable income to justify spending $120 on a single meal, so I’m not really sure what I’m missing out on there.
I love meat in other contexts, but I’m not super into it on its own if it’s lightly seasoned. I have had steak from a local grass fed farm (Vermont), which, I have to imagine, was a very high quality piece of meat. I consider myself a fairly adept cook, and cooked the meat rare with salt and pepper and a healthy amount of fresh local butter. It was good, but… Overall, I found the complexity of flavor to be lacking, as I do with any lightly seasoned meat. For me, a regular old steak can’t compare with heavily seasoned and flavored meat like BBQ pulled pork. I think we definitely have different preferences in that regard.
Luxury food has a logarithmic value increase. A $120 steak is as much better than a $60 steak as a $60 is than a $30, and so on. Compare the best steak you’ve had (about $30?) to the worst steak you’ve had (about $15?). A $60 is that much better than the $30, so a diminishing return. A $120 steak is that much better than the $60. It’s incredible, but not something you would want to eat every day even if you were wealthy.
That’s understandable. We cannot know how much is simply different tastes or how much is the quality you have never tried.
I, too, am from New England. There’s a lot of gamey cattle around in the grass-fed world for some reason. I would wager what you had is better than some, still. Anything is better than frozen stuff that came out of a warehouse.
Interesting. You talk about steak the way so many people I know talk about Scotch. An A-B test could perhaps be a world-changer to you. That said, steak flavor is a little simpler in general. Expensive steak is usually more about texture, the balance of umami, and what flavor profile the cut has shining enough that you can tell the cut on taste alone. A good filet mignon has this tendency to melt in your mouth just a bit, like a marshmallow. No fat, no veins, no inconsistency in its silky texture. A good prime rib could be tougher, because there’s that specific flavor you look for in the middle, and that specific marbling on the sides where you get these crunchy bacon-like ends sandwiched between paper-thin layers of fat, so thin as to not be off-putting to eat generously. The people I know who swear by Rib-Eye will drive 100 miles and pay $100 for the top tier rib-eye. I’m not a Rib-Eye guy, so as much as I enjoy it, I can’t speak for it quite so well.
That’s understandable. And I can imagine BBQ Pulled Cauliflour (or whatever) is a closer match to BBQ Pulled Pork than any vegan dish is to the meat dishes I like. My favorite pulled pork is marinated lightly in wine, so you’re still tasting pork first, not some BBQ. We have a local meal in my area called cacoila, and it’s both amazing with the spices supplementing the meat… and dirt cheap.
Anything someone feels forced to eat against their will is “shit”. You’d have every right to call meat shit if someone made it the only food available to you.
Who’s being forced to eat something against their will? People should be able to make the choice to eat what they want based on all the information available. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation about animal agriculture so many people don’t have all the info.
A lot of the vegans here are pushing for the end of all meat-eating, so a lot of the non-vegans here (like the guy you responded to about “eating that shit”) feel like “nobody should be eating meat anymore” means “you shouldn’t eat meat anymore”.
Whether “you” is part of “nobody” is a challenging question. I’ve met plenty of vegans who push for meat bans, and plenty of vegans who otherwise somehow think “since veg tastes good and the only people who eat meat do so feeling guilty, we’ll eventually all be vegan anyway”. The former are a threat (sorry, they are), and the latter are not worth treating like one.
You can feel however you want but the fact is nobody here is forcing anything to do anything.
Oh some people are trying.
Many of the rest are trying to coerce people into doing things. From a legal/ethical point of view, people typically consider that a form of a forcing.
And I can feel or not feel however I want, but the fact that you decided to bring up my feelings doesn’t change facts.
Most importantly, I have clearly explained why the original comment was justified in using the word “shit” and a vegan would be justified in using the word “shit”. Heaven forbid vegans are on the same plane of existence as we mere mortals. No, you’re right. Vegans can use cuss words, but we non-vegans must bow and say “I understand that only vegetables taste good and that meat is horrible, but I eat meat because I like to feel guilty and want to burn in hell. Please judge me”
Or maybe the top comment really was justified in using the word “shit”. Please leave your reddit at the door. You’ll track in mud.
can we all start eating dog again?
If you want to. I’m not sure why you would. It doesn’t taste that good, as most dog breeds were bred for work and not flavor.
but it’s just not legal. how are you able to survive while laws and social norms stop you eating absolutely anything?
You’re right that it’s not. I’m not sure how I feel on food bans, personally. Probably very negative.
I’m not sure what you’re asking here. Social norms don’t stop anything except someone’s consented will. My wife won’t eat rabbit, but it has nothing to do with being forced against it.
Horse sausage is the way to go then.
I’ve never tried horse meat. I’ve heard bad things about it being incredibly muscly and gamey, as well as expensive. Are there any upsides for me to consider it?
I was half joking, but I had some by accident in France and it was very good as sausage. I’ve never had it in any other format.
Interesting! I recently had gator jerky I enjoyed. I’m not one of those “off-put” by what animal meat comes from. But I often want to know why I should try it. As you can see in my other replies, I’m a foodie and I like to truly understand what goes into the food I consume both literally and figuratively. To the extent I learned how to distill my own whiskey when I learned it was legal/decriminalized where I live.